Anybody valve swapped a Gen 2 88H and enjoyed the results?

[dj4eagle]

I have owned a Gen 2 88HO since being gifted the horn new in 8th grade...and have been playing on it consistently for about 15 years excluding my last couple years of college where I was only in Jazz/Marching band.

I studied Trombone through my first couple years of undergrad, but was in school for Engineering, write software for a living, and nowadays just play principal in a community orchestras + the odd Christmas or chamber gig. Despite it looking atrocious from a couple dents and my skin eating through nearly all the lacquer, it's mechanically great, I love the sound I've developed with it, and I've never been able to justify getting anything else. It's more than enough horn for my needs.

That said, one of my, and perhaps my only real long standing complaint with the 88H, and maybe it's just my horn, is the valve register. I know the Gen 2 valves are leagues ahead of Bach's standard rotor, and generally don't get upgraded, but mine feels disproportionately resistant and hard to slot on that side of the horn. It has amazing action, and sounds fine, but just nowhere near open horn. I recall playing on a used Besson 944R back in the day, with a Hagmann valve, and marvelling at how comparatively open the valve register felt. Other aspects of the horn including the slide action and overall sound I didn't care for as much, but it felt like an improvement. I haven't played many Thayer derivatives, but at conventions I was always very impressed at their openness too. Even my friend's similarly specced Yamaha Xeno felt like an incremental improvement in the Valve over my 88H, though still not so much more open I'd upgrade for it.

Perhaps besides practicality the thing that's held me back from ever horn shopping is that my 88H holds a lot of sentimental value. Even though it's risky, and not cost efficient, I'm considering getting it restored (or at least relaquered), and am not opposed to modifications. I have gotten a lightweight slide mod done by BAC (inspired by the slide on my Elkhart 48H, which I love, and wish I had more excuses to play), and that turned out fantastic.

Has anybody ever done a valve replacement on a Gen 2 88H with good results? If so, what did you switch to? I've only ever heard of it being done on Elkhart models, which had presumably stuffier valves to begin with. Could I have just gotten a badly assembled horn that would stand to benefit from a full stress-free rebuild from a competent tech?

[BGuttman]

Before you get torch-happy and start trying to replace the valve on your 88H, have somebody check to make sure the valve is aligned properly. Not just by witness marks, but using a borescope to make sure the valve lines up with the casing in both positions. Also, make sure there aren't any leaks or loose solder joints.

You may be surprised how well that old girl sings. Without any surgery.

[Specialk3700]

Conn or Greenhoe (I don't remember which) made horns that came from the factory with a greenhoe valve. From what I've seen most people liked these horns a lot. If you do end up replacing the valve using a greenhoe or M&W rotor would probably have excellent results

[Matt K]

I'd make sure that the rotor is sealing well. A good tech can adjust the bearings, make sure that there isn't any corrosion, etc. in the valve. It might be a trivial fix.

If it turns out the valve is working well, but you like the feel of the low range on other horns, it could be partially the valve, but there are a lot of other differences. You may want to consider a different leadpipe if you're sentimental about the 88. The components of the 88 are pretty good, so if you want to stick with it and it otherwise works reasonably well, modding can be fun and you can end up with something great. You can also end up making it worse, or at least different in a way you don't like. Leadpipes are reasonably safe, although you can destroy your upper inner slide during the process. 88 leadpipes are pretty consistent so you can reasonably go back to something similar without too much effort but there are some really great leadpipes out there. I would probably try a Shires or Edwards #2 or 1. Or a slightly larger rim. For a lot of us, a slightly larger than average rim size results in no loss of upper range and a huge benefit to the lower range. I play an Elliott 104 rim size even for alto.

Thayers are pretty uncommon on an 88. Typically, the Conns play pretty broad w/ the leadpipe they have in them, which is closer to a 2.5 or 3 in Shires nomenclature. Some of the "improved" rotors might be a good improvement. Like Specialk3700 mentioned, the Greenhoe conversions for 88s were pretty popular. You could get an M&W rotor (they do the work too, their owner is HornBuilder on this site), Instrument Innovations rotors, or a Rotax would be pretty slick. It's not a guarantee that I'll play better... but I would be surprised if it was worse! At least, if you get a good tech to do the work.

[Monkhouse]

I similarly find the valve range on my Elkhart 88H to be a little stuffy. I previously had an 88HCL, which had a really great valve register. I've no idea if those parts are available. It might be easier to buy one.

[EriKon]

I had the same with a Gen II 88H. When I bought my Elkhart 88H the valve register was so much better, like really on another level. Unfortunately I don't know why the valve register was so stuffy on the Gen II, but would join the crew for advocating a tech visit first and see if everything is alright on their clock.

[dj4eagle]

I had the same with a Gen II 88H. When I bought my Elkhart 88H the valve register was so much better, like really on another level. Unfortunately I don't know why the valve register was so stuffy on the Gen II, but would join the crew for advocating a tech visit first and see if everything is alright on their clock.

interesting! I've never heard anybody else report this before. How would you describe the stuffiness? Also, how would you recommend approaching this with a tech?

[Trav1s]

Conn or Greenhoe (I don't remember which) made horns that came from the factory with a greenhoe valve. From what I've seen most people liked these horns a lot. If you do end up replacing the valve using a greenhoe or M&W rotor would probably have excellent results

So there were two ways a Greenhoe valve could be had on the 88H.

First - directly from Greenhoe with all parts being Greenhoe assembled - think slide and valve section - AKA Greenhoe 88H or Greenhoe 88HT (I don't know if Greenhoe ever offered the standard bell TBH)

Second - pairing Greenhoe assembled T belled valve section with an Eastlake build slide section - AKA 88HTG. The second was a fair amount cheaper than the full Greenhoe horn. I played the 88HTG in 2010 - It was an amazing horn that I lacked the cash to purchase. (still sticks with me all these years later)

I owned a 90's Eastlake 88H that was a great horn and regret selling it to do the Rotax swap on my 79H. Valve response was nice and even. Nothing like the Greenhoe but very playable. C'est la vie.