Oh the inconsistency

ttf_sirisobhakya · Post by **ttf_sirisobhakya** » Thu Jan 04, 2018 12:34 am

I came back to my home country Thailand during new year holiday, and went to my former band to donate some accessories and snacks from Japan. My band teacher (still there after 15 years) showed me some trombones a local shop brought for him to have band freshmen try, and maybe buy. There are 2 Bachs, or at least he told me they are Bachs. They look like TB400B, .547" bore with F attachment, but with counterweight on the F branch bracing bearing Vincent Bach logo. They are manufactured in Indonesia. He told me the price. You guest. Bear in mind the TB400B sold in Japan (Taiwan-made) is around $2200 per horn.

It was $700.

I was quite sure something is wrong with the horns that make them so cheap, so I tried them, with the permission (and amusement) of the teacher. I used my Yamaha 59 mouthpiece, as well as the "Bach" 6 1/2 AL that comes with the horns.

The first horn was an absolute dog. It felt like someone stuffed a sock, or both socks, into it. No focus whatsoever, no matter high or low, no matter open side or F side. The horn just didn't center. The second is decent as an open horn, free-blowing with brilliance, but there the sock is again as soon as I press the trigger. The valve alignment was OK on the second horn. The first one I didn't bother to check. Fortunately the slides and overall constructions are OK. The teacher told me that there are 2 more horns in this lot, the two are "decent" (tried by a person from the dealer and two grade 9 students), and the grade 6 freshmen bought them. One brought hers to the band yesterday, but I did not have a chance to try it.

I have seen many threads about Bach's inconsistency, but didn't believe it is that bad until then. Same model of horn, same lot, same dealer. Have anyone experienced this level of inconsistency?

ttf_Doug Elliott · Post by **ttf_Doug Elliott** » Thu Jan 04, 2018 12:45 am

As far as I know, no real Bachs are manufactured in Indonesia. So don't attribute any of that to "Bach's inconsistency."

ttf_sirisobhakya · Post by **ttf_sirisobhakya** » Thu Jan 04, 2018 12:47 am

Quote from: Doug Elliott on Jan 04, 2018, 12:45AMAs far as I know, real Bachs are not manufactured in Indonesia. So don't attribute any of that to "Bach's inconsistency.". They are counterfeit.

I think so too, but I am not sure that Bach subcontracted the lower-end/student model manufacturing to Indonesia or not. The TB series I have seen on Catalog in Japan is all made in Taiwan, though.

ttf_Doug Elliott · Post by **ttf_Doug Elliott** » Thu Jan 04, 2018 12:50 am

I seriously doubt they would stoop that low. At least the Taiwanese have been making instruments for a long time so they probably know what they're doing.

ttf_Ted · Post by **ttf_Ted** » Thu Jan 04, 2018 1:51 am

On a Dutch Trumpet forum they posted this link:

https://nl.aliexpress.com/item/Bach-Stradivarius-Silver-plated-GOLD-KEY-LT180S-72-Flat-Professional-HARD-CASE-Trumpet-Top-Musical-Instruments/32824202282.html?src=google&albslr=206119268&isdl=y&aff_short_key=UneMJZVf&source=%7Bifdyn:dyn%7D%7Bifpla:pla%7D%7Bifdbm:DBM&albch=DID%7D&src=google&albch=shopping&acnt=494-037-6276&isdl=y&albcp=664365070&albag=32654332294&slnk=&trgt=124033421041&plac=&crea=nl32824202282&netw=s&device=c&mtctp=&gclid=CjwKCAiA-KzSBRAnEiwAkmQ158ELeZcBE03cWRAtzxmjgISHMx_K3iegA5LOo2BWSg_-E0msgKBy6RoCh0IQAvD_BwE

Which shows cheap VB trumpets, obviously fakes with those prices..

ttf_sirisobhakya · Post by **ttf_sirisobhakya** » Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:29 am

Quote from: Doug Elliott on Jan 04, 2018, 12:50AMI seriously doubt they would stoop that low. At least the Taiwanese have been making instruments for a long time so they probably know what they're doing.

I feel sorry for those kids... But at least they got a better ones, which they can use until high school... hopefully.

Quote from: Ted on Jan 04, 2018, 01:51AMOn a Dutch Trumpet forum they posted this link:

https://nl.aliexpress.com/item/Bach-Stradivarius-Silver-plated-GOLD-KEY-LT180S-72-Flat-Professional-HARD-CASE-Trumpet-Top-Musical-Instruments/32824202282.html?src=google&albslr=206119268&isdl=y&aff_short_key=UneMJZVf&source=%7Bifdyn:dyn%7D%7Bifpla:pla%7D%7Bifdbm:DBM&albch=DID%7D&src=google&albch=shopping&acnt=494-037-6276&isdl=y&albcp=664365070&albag=32654332294&slnk=&trgt=124033421041&plac=&crea=nl32824202282&netw=s&device=c&mtctp=&gclid=CjwKCAiA-KzSBRAnEiwAkmQ158ELeZcBE03cWRAtzxmjgISHMx_K3iegA5LOo2BWSg_-E0msgKBy6RoCh0IQAvD_BwE

Which shows cheap VB trumpets, obviously fakes with those prices..

I think this one is more of a scam. The plating, and the quality of the case, look too real (for me, so it can be totally wrong) to be a fake one. I think the seller would ship a trumpet that looks, and is, totally different from the photos. The ones I tried came in cheap-looking cases, and the look, build, and finish is as you expected from a lower-grade instrument.

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Thu Jan 04, 2018 8:30 am

I'm not aware of any Bach counterweight with "VB" on it. It definitely sounds like a poorly implemented clone to me.

ttf_sirisobhakya · Post by **ttf_sirisobhakya** » Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:55 pm

Quote from: Matt K on Jan 04, 2018, 08:30AMI'm not aware of any Bach counterweight with "VB" on it. It definitely sounds like a poorly implemented clone to me.

Sorry for ambiguity. I meant Vincent Bach logo.

ttf_Le.Tromboniste · Post by **ttf_Le.Tromboniste** » Wed Jan 17, 2018 4:55 pm

Yes that seems to be it. Either TB502B or TB503B depending on the bore. Never seen or heard of that before!

EDIT : Woops, wrong thread. Still applies though. I don't think what you saw is a fake. The TB502B and TB503B seem to be arround 500-700 Euros in Europe.

ttf_Le.Tromboniste · Post by **ttf_Le.Tromboniste** » Wed Jan 17, 2018 4:55 pm

Yes that seems to be it. Either TB502B or TB503B depending on the bore. Never seen or heard of that before!

EDIT : Woops, wrong thread. Still applies though. I don't think what you saw is a fake. The TB502B and TB503B seem to be arround 500-700 Euros in Europe.