Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Thu Sep 03, 2015 10:29 am

For sure, you should try a BII 7YM or BII 7Y A5. The 7Y A5 is a little heavy and a little bigger and darker sounding and feeling; there's more weight to the sound. For some this can be too much and for others it's just right. The weight is more comparable to the horns you have and have tried. I think of this bell as having a foot in the tuba world. The BII 7YM is quicker in it's response and feel, it's more malleable in terms of timbre. This one will probably bring you closest to being less pretty and having more grit in the sound. This relates to the tenor trombone more in terms of its sound. Either way, I think either of the type 7 bells will have a more malleable character than either of the bells you tried.

For tuning slides, a seamed C tuning slide has a specific feel. I think of it as having the width of sound of a standard C and the response of a smaller tuning slide. Not more efficient than a BYB, but as responsive. If you want to shrink width a little more than you did by moving to the B62 I would opt for that.

I hope this helps, I look forward to hearing from you soon.

Ben

ttf_20Posaunen · Post by **ttf_20Posaunen** » Thu Sep 03, 2015 12:56 pm

Hi Ben,

1. Is the dual-bore rotor somehow vented to prevent popping? My rotax provides some unwanted articulation noise when slurring across the valve, which is irritating on exposed/audition pieces like Saint-Saens Symphony 3. Though it's a great valve to play, that aspect bothers me increasingly.

2. How similar is the Master Series tenor bell to the Morandini model bell? What might be the practical differences in feel/sound (comparing with all other parts constant)? For example, if I owned one of those horns and the bell became damaged, what would I likely notice if I swapped in the bell from the other model?

Thanks for your wonderful responses and willingness to answer all of our endless questions!

Best regards,
Daniel

ttf_bigeg · Post by **ttf_bigeg** » Fri Sep 04, 2015 6:40 am

Quote from: sabutin on Aug 25, 2015, 07:24AMMy bad, Gabe. I missed the word "plus." Thanks. I will delete the other post after I say something about the .508 bore plus model.

I like it a lot. Much more powerful than the smaller one; much more usable as an acoustic horn with some projecting power. Very 3B-ish but without some of the flaws of many 3Bs...not all 3Bs, though...and with a more complex sound. The only drawback, I think...and you might not call it a drawback...is the relative simplicity of the sound of a yellow brass bell 3B allows it to attack at fairly high volumes like a whip. SMACK!!! Right in your face. A good thing in some respects. I would love to spend some real time w/one of these horns. My .508 is the only size of all of my Shires horns that doesn't quite work for me. I think this one might.

S.

Sam, with your extensive knowledge of horns, how would you say it would compare to a Silversonic 3B rather than a Gold 3B? I play a 70's 3BSS, do you think I'd be losing much or any projection/edge with the MD+? I love my horn, it has great character to the sound and can take a lot of air, but my main gripes are occasional inconsistencies/annoyances (sometimes stuffy upper range above high Bb) and trouble with the feedback of my own sound when I play in a section (I'm on lead). It's lead me to think about looking for a horn that might just be that 5-10% easier to play and slot while still retaining what I love about my 3B. The other horn I was considering would be a Yamaha 891z but am I right in thinking the MD+ would be a more versatile horn?

Ben, with the artist model horns with exact specs, is there ever any playing variance between horns being produced, even like 1% better?

Thanks,
Gareth

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Fri Sep 04, 2015 7:36 am

QuoteBen, with the artist model horns with exact specs, is there ever any playing variance between horns being produced, even like 1% better?
With any handmade instrument, there will be some variance. (In fact, I have yet to play any two instruments from any manufacturer from anytime that play exactly alike). However, I do find that the our horns play very consistently, exhibiting the core characteristics that each model represents.

I do not think any individual example is particularly better or worse than another, truly. If I don't think it's not representative of how the model should play, it doesn't leave the factory. I have no problem recommending anyone order a setup to be made and am confident it will play like the example they tested. However, you may find that you like the extra 1% of a particular characteristics that is exhibited in one particular example versus another. This is hair splitting of fine proportion and if you are one sensitive to these characteristics I recommend you find examples ready for immediate purchase and pick your favorite.

I hope that helps.

Ben

P.S. If you find anyone that can make any instrument exactly alike, not even 1% variation, and still have any character at all worth mentioning, please let them know they have a job waiting for them!

ttf_boneheaded518 · Post by **ttf_boneheaded518** » Sat Sep 05, 2015 12:50 pm

I have a question... I recently bought a large-bore Shires tenor and I love it. However, my hand starts to hurt after playing for a while. I have the Tru-bore valve, so attaching a bullet brace wouldn't work. What do you recommend? Is there a brace that can be soldered on below the valve? If so, how would I go about getting that done?

ttf_sfboner · Post by **ttf_sfboner** » Sat Sep 05, 2015 1:53 pm

Quote from: boneheaded518 on Sep 05, 2015, 12:50PMI have a question... I recently bought a large-bore Shires tenor and I love it. However, my hand starts to hurt after playing for a while. I have the Tru-bore valve, so attaching a bullet brace wouldn't work. What do you recommend? Is there a brace that can be soldered on below the valve? If so, how would I go about getting that done?

The brace Shires makes is fantastic. A flange is soldered to the slide receiver, and the adjustable brace slides in and is held in place by a couple set screws. It sort of combines the best features of the Bullet brace and the Greenhoe brace.

I have heard that Jupiter makes a similar brace that is very inexpensive.

ttf_boneheaded518 · Post by **ttf_boneheaded518** » Sat Sep 05, 2015 4:27 pm

Quote from: sfboner on Sep 05, 2015, 01:53PMThe brace Shires makes is fantastic. A flange is soldered to the slide receiver, and the adjustable brace slides in and is held in place by a couple set screws. It sort of combines the best features of the Bullet brace and the Greenhoe brace.

I have heard that Jupiter makes a similar brace that is very inexpensive.

Awesome. I play on a bass that has a greenhoe brace and I like it a lot, so this would be great. So I have to send it in to their shop to have it done, I imagine?

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Sat Sep 05, 2015 7:49 pm

I've always wondered about this brace... Is Shires still making this? If so, why wouldn't it be listed on the website?

Quote from: sfboner on Sep 05, 2015, 01:53PMThe brace Shires makes is fantastic. A flange is soldered to the slide receiver, and the adjustable brace slides in and is held in place by a couple set screws. It sort of combines the best features of the Bullet brace and the Greenhoe brace.

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Sat Sep 05, 2015 8:39 pm

Quote from: moore.trombone on Sep 05, 2015, 07:49PMI've always wondered about this brace... Is Shires still making this? If so, why wouldn't it be listed on the website?

Most of the customers are buying them with horns. Check under accessories.

ttf_Gabe Langfur · Post by **ttf_Gabe Langfur** » Sun Sep 06, 2015 7:57 am

On the basses a mount for that brace has now been incorporated on the 2nd valve lever bridge.

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Sun Sep 06, 2015 9:05 am

What case would you recommend for a large bore tenor with an axial valve? I would travel with it everyday. Thank you in advance.

ttf_sfboner · Post by **ttf_sfboner** » Sun Sep 06, 2015 10:13 am

Quote from: Gabe Langfur on Sep 06, 2015, 07:57AMOn the basses a mount for that brace has now been incorporated on the 2nd valve lever bridge.

That's good - I managed to get mine into a good position for my hand, but there wasn't much wiggle room, due to that bridge.

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Sun Sep 06, 2015 10:39 am

Quote from: Cxlbxn on Sep 06, 2015, 09:05AMWhat case would you recommend for a large bore tenor with an axial valve? I would travel with it everyday. Thank you in advance.

I really dig the newer Eastman cases (not the more expensive one, the "older" design, I can't recall the model right now). I had one a month ago (sold it because I plan on buying another one in a different color) and tried it with a Thayer valve and it fit fine. An older rotary valve also fit fine as well, not sure if the tru-bore would fit though.

ttf_SethMatrix · Post by **ttf_SethMatrix** » Tue Sep 08, 2015 10:28 am

Will a Bach 50 slide fit into a Shires bass bell section?

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Tue Sep 08, 2015 10:52 am

Quote from: Cxlbxn on Sep 06, 2015, 09:05AMWhat case would you recommend for a large bore tenor with an axial valve? I would travel with it everyday. Thank you in advance.

Any case that fits a large bore with axial valve will fit our horns. There are MANY on the market and I do not think I can recommend one over another in this context. I;m sure if you do some digging you will find one that best suits your needs and price point.

Best,
Ben

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Tue Sep 08, 2015 10:54 am

Quote from: SethMatrix on Sep 08, 2015, 10:28AMWill a Bach 50 slide fit into a Shires bass bell section?

Perhaps.

While the specs should be the same, I have found that they sometimes are not in practice. If you want a guaranteed fit you could replace the bell receiver portion of the the slide with a Shires part. Many have done this, the part is only $25.

I hope that helps.

Ben

ttf_Cxlbxn · Post by **ttf_Cxlbxn** » Wed Sep 09, 2015 4:05 pm

What lubricants do you recommend and how often for the axial valve, tuning slides, and trombone slide. Thanks.

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 6:08 am

Quote from: Cxlbxn on Sep 09, 2015, 04:05PMWhat lubricants do you recommend and how often for the axial valve, tuning slides, and trombone slide. Thanks.

We recommend Hetman products of specific weights for new instruments. The nice thing about the Hetman system is that every lighter weight will break down heavier weight oils/greases. This is handy if you have to flush anything.

#11 light rotor oil for the valve core, EVERY TIME YOU PLAY THE HORN (especially on axials!!!). You get to this through the slide receiver, tuning slide receiver, and through the valve tuning slide. When going through the valve tuning slide, be sure to put a few drops in the slide crook, re-insert all the way into the valve section, then tip to let the oil run to the valve. (Inserting all the way will prevent you from breaking down the tuning slide grease and it running down to the valve too. Get's very gummy. Not fun.)

#13 light bearing and linkage on the spindle. On axial flow valves you only need oil between the stop arm and stop plate. A few drops every 2-3 days.

#7 Tuning slide gel. Tuning slides, as needed. Put a thin ring around the leading edge of the tuning slide and twist the tuning slide as you insert it one leg at a time. Wipe off any excess. This is pretty gummy stuff, so it's less messy to work your way up rather than using too much and having to clean it.

Ball Joint Grease. For the miniball links and collars. Place a drop on the ball near the collar and work the collar back and forth until it's worked in. (I personally use a cheat: a drop of tuning slide gel and then a drop of the bearing and linkage oil. It breaks down the grease enough to work in nicely).

As your horn ages, or depending on your personal body chemistry, you may find that you need to kick up to higher viscosities as time goes on. #12 for the rotor core and #13 1/2 or #14 for the spindle. You'll know it's time if you are having to oil more and more frequently. If you choose to use another oil, caveat emptor. Non-synthetic oils can gum up the works, especially on new valves.

For the slide, any number of slide lubricants do the trick and I think it's mostly up to body chemistry. They come out of the box with Slide-O-Mix. I personally use the Yamaha slide oil most of the time. Immediately after cleaning, I will usually do a very, very thin coat of trombotine and only use water. As action starts to drag I go to the Yamaha oil and they work great together. It's a more involved process getting it just right, but it's what works for me.

I love that you asked this. I see more deteriorated valves that are as a result of people not oiling them correctly or nearly often enough. Anyone that has had a showroom appointment with me has heard me say "Oil is cheap, valves are expensive". Oil your valves!!!

And clean your slides! I cannot tell you how many times we get slides in the shop for "poor action" and all they need it is a good cleaning and they're good as new.

I hope that helps,
Ben

ttf_cigmar · Post by **ttf_cigmar** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 8:28 am

Ben,

I have one of the older axial valves from the year 2000. Should I be using a different grade Hetman for the spindle and rotor core?

Thanks.

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Sun Sep 13, 2015 3:52 pm

Quote from: cigmar on Sep 11, 2015, 08:28AMBen,

I have one of the older axial valves from the year 2000. Should I be using a different grade Hetman for the spindle and rotor core?

Thanks.

It's probably safe to say that a thicker viscosity, like #12 and #14 would do your valve well.

Ben

ttf_Rockymountaintrombone · Sun Sep 13, 2015 5:02 pm

Ben -

Your previous post with types of lubricants and frequency/amount, etc. is pure gold. If that info is not on the website, it should be as a reference for everyone buying one of your horns (or one of the other boutique brands out there). Thanks for posting it!

Jim Scott

ttf_trmbtrmb · Post by **ttf_trmbtrmb** » Mon Sep 14, 2015 1:52 pm

Ben,

I am still absolutely loving the new horn! The guys in the section love it too. I love the response and focused sound. I am curious about the effects of a rose or gold brass tuning slide vs. a gold brass slide. I imagine they have similar effects. What differences do you notice one vs the other? Thanks.

Matt Lynch

ttf_Ellrod · Post by **ttf_Ellrod** » Mon Sep 14, 2015 2:50 pm

Any old rotor oil for a standard rotor valve?

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Tue Sep 15, 2015 6:15 am

Quote from: Ellrod on Sep 14, 2015, 02:50PMAny old rotor oil for a standard rotor valve?

We recommend a synthetic oil, like Hetman #11 light rotor oil. If yours is an older valve you may prefer Hetman #12.

ttf_TromboneConcerto · Thu Sep 17, 2015 7:28 pm

Hi Ben,

I have a Pro Select Shires, PB47/PSY/Axial, and I was wondering if you do any conversion jobs at the factory to make the pro select take custom shires parts. If so, would it be better in the long run to mod my horn to take the custom parts, or just buy a whole new custom horn altogether.

Thanks,
Kyle

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Fri Sep 18, 2015 6:15 am

Quote from: KyleOmusician on Sep 17, 2015, 07:28PMHi Ben,

I have a Pro Select Shires, PB47/PSY/Axial, and I was wondering if you do any conversion jobs at the factory to make the pro select take custom shires parts. If so, would it be better in the long run to mod my horn to take the custom parts, or just buy a whole new custom horn altogether.

Thanks,
Kyle

For those not in the know, the Pro-Select series was a limited run instrument, priced less than normal Shires instruments. They were sets of specific combinations and, while of the exact same quality and construction as Shires Custom instruments, they were non-compatible with Shires Custom components. The bell mounting studs, valve section screw rings and slide receiver, and bell receive (slide) were of a different thread pitch.

We've done conversions in the past, sometimes on complete instruments, sometimes just on select components. Swapping the bell studs, valve section bell mount screw rings, and bell receiver (slide) are very simple, straight forward jobs that we or any decent tech can manage. The tough part is the slide receiver (valve side), which is much more difficult to replace.

If you are interested in moving forward please contact me at [url=mailto:[email protected]][email protected][/url] and we can discuss your options.

Thanks,
Ben

ttf_cigmar · Post by **ttf_cigmar** » Sat Sep 19, 2015 6:20 am

Ben,

Can you compare the 2RVE and the 2RVET7 bells. The characteristics of each and which is more representative of the Elkhart bells.

Thanks.

ttf_trmbtrmb · Post by **ttf_trmbtrmb** » Sat Sep 19, 2015 2:17 pm

Ben,

I am still absolutely loving the new horn! The guys in the section love it too. I love the response and focused sound. I am curious about the effects of a gold brass tuning slide vs. a gold brass slide. I imagine they have similar effects. What differences do you notice one vs the other? Thanks.

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Mon Sep 21, 2015 5:18 am

Quote from: cigmar on Sep 19, 2015, 06:20AMBen,

Can you compare the 2RVE and the 2RVET7 bells. The characteristics of each and which is more representative of the Elkhart bells.

Thanks.

The 2RVET7 is thinner toward the edge of the bell than the 2RVE. This gives it a little quicker response, and little broader sound with more feedback behind the bell, is more timbrally flexible, and has a larger feel than the 2RVE. The 2RVE is a little more locked in, with a more defined slot. It is still flexible, but there's more of a feeling against progressively pushing against a spring; it'll let you move to different places, but it still let's you know where home is.

All of this also can be accentuated or de-emphasized depending on how the rest of the horn is set up.

As to which is more representative of the Elkhart era, I ask "which one"? Seriosly, it spans a long time. I'd say the T7 is closer to the early 60's up to the move.

I hope that helps.

Ben

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Mon Sep 21, 2015 5:26 am

Quote from: trmbtrmb on Sep 19, 2015, 02:17PMBen,

I am still absolutely loving the new horn! The guys in the section love it too. I love the response and focused sound. I am curious about the effects of a gold brass tuning slide vs. a gold brass slide. I imagine they have similar effects. What differences do you notice one vs the other? Thanks.

One might think that they do the same thing, add some warmth to the sound, but they go about it in different enough ways that I think of them doing different things.

A gold brass tuning slide does different things depending on how the rest of the horn is set up and who is playing the horn. Paired with an otherwise all yellow brass horn (which is how most people check it out), the gold brass can add some warmth to the sound, generally by eliminating some of the upper/bright overtones in the sound. This can have a dulling effect on the sound for some players. This is often balanced with a sterling silver leadpipe. The combination of sterling pipe with gold tuning slide often is a very clear sound (not a lot of rubbing overtones) that is balanced throughout low to high.

A gold brass slide changes the character of the whole horn. It makes the instrument "bouncier" for lack of a better terms. I.e. there is a spring to the attack of notes, both in response and in terms of timbre. The sound is generally very warm and rich as well. You don't see a ton of them in orchestras because I think even the most defined attack on a gold brass slide sounds more like a hard "D" rather than a "T". I personally like the sound of gold brass slides (I have one on my .485 bore Shires) but I also understand the needs of some peoples' jobs. There is also a difference between how the lightweight and standard weight slides play, as you might expect. The lightweight is a bit more free blowing, with more spring and snap. Very flexible, it can get wide when the dynamics are pushed. The standard weight is a more buttoned down affair, with a more rigidly defined slot (but more flexible than a yellow slide). You can fell how it projects different.

I hope this helps.

Cheers,
Ben

ttf_Don Draper · Post by **ttf_Don Draper** » Tue Sep 22, 2015 3:47 pm

Ben,

I am wondering if Shires has a bell in the style of an Edwards "J" mandrel. I played one for years in a service band that was a red brass, light gauge, unsoldered rim. Do Shires have anything like that? I have played your T1 lightweight red bell and it is not the same....

DD

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Tue Sep 22, 2015 4:13 pm

Quote from: Don Draper on Sep 22, 2015, 03:47PMBen,

I am wondering if Shires has a bell in the style of an Edwards "J" mandrel. I played one for years in a service band that was a red brass, light gauge, unsoldered rim. Do Shires have anything like that? I have played your T1 lightweight red bell and it is not the same....

DD

Hi Don.

I do not know enough about the J mandrel to comment one way or another. However we do have a TII mandrel that is larger in the throat and might be closer to what you are looking for.

I should also note that there's a lot more that goes into it than just the weight and material and solder. I'm wondering if your old bell had any special treatment done to it. Then there's the rest of the horn that it's attached to. It can significantly change the way any bell sounds, feels, and responds. Just comparing the "same" specs between manufacturers doesn't quite do it, there's so many different things about the way different manufacturers build horns.

If you gave me some characteristics you were chasing I might better be able to guide your search...

Ben

ttf_schiffko · Post by **ttf_schiffko** » Mon Sep 28, 2015 7:06 am

Recently i got a shires tenor trombone tuning slide marked B!
What this stand for?
It plays very tight

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Mon Sep 28, 2015 7:52 am

Quote from: schiffko on Sep 28, 2015, 07:06AMRecently i got a shires tenor trombone tuning slide marked B!
What this stand for?
It plays very tight

That is an older tuning slide. They used to be offered in a variety of tapers, "B" being the middle one. It turned out that almost everyone opted for a "B", so it became our standard TY. (Maybe around 2000?)

If the horn plays tight I would guess it is somewhere else in the instrument, it's not usually this particular tuning slide. I'd need to know the rest of your set-up and what you are generally used to in order to comment further.

Ben

_________________________________________________ ________________________________

A Quick note about tuning slide, the above comments refer to large tenor tuning slides only. Large tenors have two different markings now: none at all is a standard TY, and "S" indicates a seamed tuning slide (TYS), an "X" indicated a TX.

Basses continue to be offered in "B" and "C" tapers and all of them are marked as such. They also get marked "S" when they are seamed as well.

Small tenors have no marking "SY", "1.0" (SY1.0), or "1.5" (SY1.5). They can also be marked "S" if seamed.

ttf_schiffko · Post by **ttf_schiffko** » Mon Sep 28, 2015 12:22 pm

Thanks
I use it with a red brass taper 1 bell
Tw47 slide
1,5 pipe

ttf_schiffko · Post by **ttf_schiffko** » Mon Sep 28, 2015 12:23 pm

Its also more rounded....bach like and tighter looking

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Tue Sep 29, 2015 5:43 am

Quote from: schiffko on Sep 28, 2015, 12:22PMThanks
I use it with a red brass taper 1 bell
Tw47 slide
1,5 pipe

I would look at the leadpipe first. What is the red bell code? Particular models of red bells can feel dull and or thuddy if they are too heavy, which can lead to a feeling of tightness as well. What kind of valve is on the horn? If it is as old as the tuning slide it may not be aligned properly or not up to proper pressure. Either of these things can make it feel stuffy and/or unfocused. has the instrument been professionally cleaned in recent times?

Quote from: schiffko on Sep 28, 2015, 12:23PMIts also more rounded....bach like and tighter looking

I can't say anything for sure without seeing it. But early production pieces had much more handwork involved, there is likely some variation compared to current models.

Reading these posts I'm still suspect of some other parts. Make sure the valve (if you have one) is in proper spec, and then look at the leadpipe next.

I hope that helps,
Ben

_________________________________________________ ____________________________

This used purchase bring three concepts into mind that apply universally to all instruments.

The first is that a good fit for one person will not necessarily be a good fit for another. This doesn't mean that it's a good or bad horn, just that it isn't the right fit. It took me years to learn how to play a Bach 42 efficiently and easily after growing up with a vintage Conn 8H.

The second is that different models do not play the same. A _______ is not the same as a ______, even if they come from the same manufacturer.

The third is that even the best made horn will not work properly if it is not in good repair. If something feels funny get the horn checked out by a competent tech!

ttf_20Posaunen · Post by **ttf_20Posaunen** » Wed Sep 30, 2015 4:19 pm

Quote from: griffinben on Feb 10, 2014, 01:11PMThis could be a good place to start. Quite honestly, there's a lot of variation in Bach 42's. A one-piece bell in our larger taper is more "Bach-like", but there's a lot of bells that encompass that description. It could be our TII5VNY or it could be a Chicago bell, or it could be a TII5YLW. Knowing more about what characteristics you are looking for will help us determine which would be a good place for you to start looking.

The Chicago bell is different than the other TII 5 bells; I'm not exactly sure what the difference is but you can feel it when you play it.

I hope that helps,
Ben

Hi Ben,

I play-tested a TII 5YVNY today and liked it very much compared to the other two bells available (2RVE & 7YLW), no matter the slide/pipe/ts/valve configurations. Now that we found a good balance for me with the TS, slide, & leadpipe, I think I might also want to try the TII 7YLW & 5YLW, since I seem to prefer the TII bell taper.
Because it is unlikely that my local shop could get them all in at once in the near future, could you explain any differences between these three yellow TII bells (in response/feedback/sound, etc.) to your best ability?

Thanks!
Daniel

ttf_The Bone Ranger · Post by **ttf_The Bone Ranger** » Wed Sep 30, 2015 8:31 pm

Can you recommend a case (or something with more protection than a Cronkhite, for example) that will fit one of your basses with dependent Thayer valves?

Andrew.

ttf_HouBassTrombone · Post by **ttf_HouBassTrombone** » Wed Sep 30, 2015 8:57 pm

I used a Marcus Bonna when I played a shires with dep Thayers.

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Fri Oct 02, 2015 5:27 am

Quote from: The Bone Ranger on Sep 30, 2015, 08:31PMCan you recommend a case (or something with more protection than a Cronkhite, for example) that will fit one of your basses with dependent Thayer valves?

Andrew.

The Marcus Bonna is the only standard, commercially available case I am aware of that really fits these well. You can also look into Accord, carbon fiber cases, who will custom fit an interior to your case.

I hope that helps.

Ben

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Fri Oct 02, 2015 5:44 am

Quote from: 20Posaunen on Sep 30, 2015, 04:19PMHi Ben,

I play-tested a TII 5YVNY today and liked it very much compared to the other two bells available (2RVE & 7YLW), no matter the slide/pipe/ts/valve configurations. Now that we found a good balance for me with the TS, slide, & leadpipe, I think I might also want to try the TII 7YLW & 5YLW, since I seem to prefer the TII bell taper.
Because it is unlikely that my local shop could get them all in at once in the near future, could you explain any differences between these three yellow TII bells (in response/feedback/sound, etc.) to your best ability?

Thanks!
Daniel

Hi Daniel,

The is some difference between the three bells you mentioned, TII 5YVNY, TII 5YLW, and TII 7YLW. The most obvious is between the type 5 and 7 bells; the 7 is a two piece design and the 5 a one piece. As for weight, they are all relatively similar.

I'm not really at liberty to discuss the differences between the TII 5YVNY and TII 5YLW, but there are pretty close to one another. I think the TII 5YLW is a little snappier in it's response and more timbrally flexible in the bright part of it's sound while the VNY is a little thicker in the middle of it's sound with more flexibility there. It's a very subtle difference, but it's there.

Compared to those two bells the TII 7LW is a little more stable, a little more on rails. You can color the outsides of the sound but the core remains the same. It also may be a little more direct than the type 5 bells.

As for availability, give me a call at 508-634-6805 or email ben@seshires.

I hope that helps,
Ben

ttf_ah64pilot · Post by **ttf_ah64pilot** » Fri Oct 02, 2015 4:51 pm

What is the usual trial time for equipment? I "found" a couple lead pipes (2.0 & 2.5) and am trying to decide between them. So far I'm liking the smaller of the 2 but I have GB piece coming next week that I'd like to try on both pipes.

When do you feel comfortable making the decision been two pieces like this? They both sound great, the 2.0 has a little better response for now but as I grow as a player...who knows?

Anyone want to buy a Shires 1.5 large bore lead pipe?

ttf_sabutin · Post by **ttf_sabutin** » Fri Oct 02, 2015 6:26 pm

Quote from: ah64pilot on Oct 02, 2015, 04:51PMWhat is the usual trial time for equipment? I "found" a couple lead pipes (2.0 & 2.5) and am trying to decide between them. So far I'm liking the smaller of the 2 but I have GB piece coming next week that I'd like to try on both pipes.

When do you feel comfortable making the decision been two pieces like this? They both sound great, the 2.0 has a little better response for now but as I grow as a player...who knows?

Anyone want to buy a Shires 1.5 large bore lead pipe?

Keep it. Y'never know...

S.

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Mon Oct 05, 2015 5:34 am

Quote from: ah64pilot on Oct 02, 2015, 04:51PMWhat is the usual trial time for equipment? I "found" a couple lead pipes (2.0 & 2.5) and am trying to decide between them. So far I'm liking the smaller of the 2 but I have GB piece coming next week that I'd like to try on both pipes.

When do you feel comfortable making the decision been two pieces like this? They both sound great, the 2.0 has a little better response for now but as I grow as a player...who knows?

Anyone want to buy a Shires 1.5 large bore lead pipe?

Our trial time, as prescribed from the factory, is two weeks; this is the time within which people have to return a part upon trial. In practice, I find people settle on leadpipes pretty quickly. I can usually pinpoint it within a typical 2 hour appointments and leadpipes generally take no longer than 15 minutes at the out end.

In your case: Is it the quick response or the larger feel that you prefer?

I would guess that coupled with the quick response, you have more control with the 2 as well. I usually defer to control when advising players. As they develop a balance with the pipe, the size of sound can grow as they work from that balance point. Starting with a bigger sound and trying to develop control seems less successful to my ears; bad habits can develop and the quality of timbre generally shifts throughout the range. Usually a larger leadpipe will recommend itself when it is time.If these are really close to each other in feel, control, and sound I'd pick one that best exemplifies the qualities you are after. Be sure to listen to the entirety of the note shape (beginning, middle, and end) and not just one part of the note when listening.

I would keep these thoughts in mind. Do you have a teacher and/or colleagues that can listen to you on both and make a recommendation?

ttf_SethMatrix · Post by **ttf_SethMatrix** » Mon Oct 05, 2015 5:43 am

How does Shires match a mouthpiece to a player? Do bass trombone players play a size too big sometimes?

When you were talking about leadpipes I thought about how sometimes people can go for a huge mouthpiece but all the control goes out the window for the sound of that larger mouthpiece.

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Mon Oct 05, 2015 7:06 am

Quote from: SethMatrix on Oct 05, 2015, 05:43AMHow does Shires match a mouthpiece to a player? Do bass trombone players play a size too big sometimes?

When you were talking about leadpipes I thought about how sometimes people can go for a huge mouthpiece but all the control goes out the window for the sound of that larger mouthpiece.

I do not match a mouthpiece to a player unless they are here shopping for mouthpieces. Beyond that I do not make any recommendations to the player unless I am specifically asked. Even in those instances I answer specific questions, I never try to lead someone to something I might think they should play because it is not my decision; hopefully they have colleagues or teachers that give them feedback that helps them point in a direction toward making those kinds of decisions. It's not my place.

I try to balance the player and the instrument to how they play now, at their current level, and make sure we aren't finding any combinations that I feel would be limiting in any way during the player's artistic growth or development.

ttf_ah64pilot · Post by **ttf_ah64pilot** » Mon Oct 05, 2015 11:00 am

Quote from: griffinben on Oct 05, 2015, 05:34AMOur trial time, as prescribed from the factory, is two weeks; this is the time within which people have to return a part upon trial. In practice, I find people settle on leadpipes pretty quickly. I can usually pinpoint it within a typical 2 hour appointments and leadpipes generally take no longer than 15 minutes at the out end.

In your case: Is it the quick response or the larger feel that you prefer?

I would guess that coupled with the quick response, you have more control with the 2 as well. I usually defer to control when advising players. As they develop a balance with the pipe, the size of sound can grow as they work from that balance point. Starting with a bigger sound and trying to develop control seems less successful to my ears; bad habits can develop and the quality of timbre generally shifts throughout the range. Usually a larger leadpipe will recommend itself when it is time.If these are really close to each other in feel, control, and sound I'd pick one that best exemplifies the qualities you are after. Be sure to listen to the entirety of the note shape (beginning, middle, and end) and not just one part of the note when listening.

I would keep these thoughts in mind. Do you have a teacher and/or colleagues that can listen to you on both and make a recommendation?

Yes. I'm studying with Ilan Morgenstern. I'll be playing for him today and will make a final decision. Pretty sure it's gonna be the 2.0 though.

Thanks Ben!

ttf_ah64pilot · Post by **ttf_ah64pilot** » Wed Oct 07, 2015 10:43 am

Quote from: sabutin on Oct 02, 2015, 06:26PMKeep it. Y'never know...

S.
I don't know you from Adam but I think we'd get along just fine. We'd be broke, but hell, we'd have a blast!

Ended up paying for both. One is none, two is one. Or something like that.

But I guess now I have 3...

ttf_Torobone · Post by **ttf_Torobone** » Tue Oct 13, 2015 9:03 pm

Ok, the main criticism I've had of Shires around Toronto has been the local dealer and their inability to guide me through a selection process. I bought a particular Yamaha 830 that I still love rather than drive to Elkhorn to buy a B454V. If a friend showed up with an Edwards, of I tried their horn, I wanted it. With a Shires, I was never sure.

Now I'm faced with a lovely dilemma. A friend is selling a Shires bass setup with the following specs:

Gold brass bell a yellow brass B tuning slide
Dependent true bore valve set a light weight slide and a dual bore slide
Marcus Bona case with 3 lead pipes 1,2,3.
Griego .5 mouthpiece, or my current Marcinkiewicz Bill Reichenbach signature.

The Griego is great below the staff, but I feel there is, nor ever will be, any edge and it's a bit of work. The Reichebach is a doublers mouthpiece, which works well but doesn't really work as well to play a melody below the staff.

I used the lightweight slide at a concert/rehearsal, and it plays exactly like I think a bass should play: pretty much a symphony tenor with an instantly accessible range below the staff. It's an easy blow both above and below the staff. I want this horn!

My question is, given the setup mentioned above, is whether some component I should try to improve this further?