Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Wed Oct 14, 2015 5:30 am

Quote from: Torobone on Oct 13, 2015, 09:03PMOk, the main criticism I've had of Shires around Toronto has been the local dealer and their inability to guide me through a selection process. I bought a particular Yamaha 830 that I still love rather than drive to Elkhorn to buy a B454V. If a friend showed up with an Edwards, of I tried their horn, I wanted it. With a Shires, I was never sure.

Now I'm faced with a lovely dilemma. A friend is selling a Shires bass setup with the following specs:

Gold brass bell a yellow brass B tuning slide
Dependent true bore valve set a light weight slide and a dual bore slide
Marcus Bona case with 3 lead pipes 1,2,3.
Griego .5 mouthpiece, or my current Marcinkiewicz Bill Reichenbach signature.

The Griego is great below the staff, but I feel there is, nor ever will be, any edge and it's a bit of work. The Reichebach is a doublers mouthpiece, which works well but doesn't really work as well to play a melody below the staff.

I used the lightweight slide at a concert/rehearsal, and it plays exactly like I think a bass should play: pretty much a symphony tenor with an instantly accessible range below the staff. It's an easy blow both above and below the staff. I want this horn!

My question is, given the setup mentioned above, is whether some component I should try to improve this further?

That is entirely up to you, however it plays exactly the way you think it should, I don't know that I'd be inclined to mess with it at all!

It is sometimes enlightening to try different equipment, if for no other reason to get your ears in a different place. You can always try L&M and see what they have or meet us or one of our larger customers at a trombone show or festival.

Good luck, I am glad you are liking your new horn!

ttf_Torobone · Post by **ttf_Torobone** » Wed Oct 14, 2015 6:13 am

Quote from: griffinben on Oct 14, 2015, 05:30AMThat is entirely up to you, however it plays exactly the way you think it should, I don't know that I'd be inclined to mess with it at all!

It is sometimes enlightening to try different equipment, if for no other reason to get your ears in a different place. You can always try L&M and see what they have or meet us or one of our larger customers at a trombone show or festival.

Good luck, I am glad you are liking your new horn!

Thanks, Ben. It is really easy to say that there are more bits to try on a modular horn, but it is always important to know when to stop.

I will say my facial muscles are feeling it today. I play a lot of ledger lines, but they are normally above the staff. That's why the ease of the blow is so important for me.

ttf_schiffko · Post by **ttf_schiffko** » Fri Oct 16, 2015 2:28 am

I have a 3R TB bell
Whats this exactly?

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Fri Oct 16, 2015 3:05 am

What is the tubing bore size of the small note and alto attachments?

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Fri Oct 16, 2015 7:17 am

Quote from: schiffko on Oct 16, 2015, 02:28AMI have a 3R TB bell
Whats this exactly?

Type 3 bells were a step along the path to the type 7 bells (that are now our most popular). The type 3 is a two piece bell (stem and flare) with a seamed flare. This allowed us to distribute the thickness of metal a particular way and was a common thing in brass manufacture until about the last 80/90 or so years. Your is of this construction, with a soldered beadwire in standard weight red brass.

Are you sure you are reading TB? It might also say T8,which sometimes it gets mistaken for. Both of these are specific treatments to the bell flare. The TB (of which there must be less than a dozen) has a bouncy articulation quality. The T8 has a slightly quicker response and livelier feel.

I hope that helps.

Ben

ttf_schiffko · Post by **ttf_schiffko** » Fri Oct 16, 2015 7:30 am

Thanks a lot
It definately says TB

Bach or conn style taper?

ttf_tombone21 · Post by **ttf_tombone21** » Fri Oct 16, 2015 1:59 pm

Quote from: griffinben on Oct 16, 2015, 07:17AMType 3 bells were a step along the path to the type 7 bells (that are now our most popular). The type 3 is a two piece bell (stem and flare) with a seamed flare. This allowed us to distribute the thickness of metal a particular way and was a common thing in brass manufacture until about the last 80/90 or so years. Your is of this construction, with a soldered beadwire in standard weight red brass.

Are you sure you are reading TB? It might also say T8,which sometimes it gets mistaken for. Both of these are specific treatments to the bell flare. The TB (of which there must be less than a dozen) has a bouncy articulation quality. The T8 has a slightly quicker response and livelier feel.

I hope that helps.

Ben

What does the B stand for in TB taper?

ttf_drizabone · Post by **ttf_drizabone** » Sat Oct 17, 2015 2:57 pm

Hi, I hope this is the right place for this question, if not then I'll move it.

I'm looking to buy a bass and would love to get a Shires. I live in Australia and we don't have shops where we can try lots of different components to find the ideal horn. So I'm going to have to buy one without playing it. So I'm thinking of buying a used shires that should do what I want and then swap parts if I need too.

So I'd like a horn that is basically a modern small conn 72h, nice rich sound, doesn't need too much air and is easy to play.

I also know that buying second hand I'm going to have to take what is available so I've got 2 questions:

- what would be the default setup for a small bass to play in a wind orchestra

- I can get this setup second hand : would it make a reasonable small bass? what would I be best to change?

Bell : TII 7GM or T1 2GMT7
Tuning Slide : Yellow
Hand Slide : B62
Valves : Trubore Dependent

TIA

ttf_bbocaner · Post by **ttf_bbocaner** » Sat Oct 17, 2015 8:11 pm

Quote from: tombone21 on Oct 16, 2015, 01:59PMWhat does the B stand for in TB taper?

They are shy about this, and I am not certain and expect I may get corrected. I think it means the bead wire is bronze rather than brass.

ttf_Gabe Langfur · Post by **ttf_Gabe Langfur** » Sun Oct 18, 2015 7:07 am

Quote from: drizabone on Oct 17, 2015, 02:57PMSo I'd like a horn that is basically a modern small conn 72h, nice rich sound, doesn't need too much air and is easy to play.
There are too many differences between a 72H and pretty much any modern bass trombone for this to be entirely possible. Any Shires combination that doesn't involve special order parts is going to feel substantially bigger than a 72H.

It's much easier to get close to the feel of a Bach or Holton bass in the Shires system than a classic Conn, and in my judgment the 72H is the Conn model farthest from a modern bass. The reasons have to do with both the narrow slide crook and the thinner, lighter braces on the 72H.

QuoteI also know that buying second hand I'm going to have to take what is available so I've got 2 questions:

- what would be the default setup for a small bass to play in a wind orchestra

- I can get this setup second hand : would it make a reasonable small bass? what would I be best to change?

Bell : TII 7GM or T1 2GMT7
Tuning Slide : Yellow
Hand Slide : B62
Valves : Trubore Dependent

TIA

This will be a nice start. Dependent valves of any type tend to respond a bit more like a smaller single valve. A Single valve would be even closer. The BI (Not T - that would be a tenor bell) 2GMT7 will be more like a Conn bell, and might very well be what I would recommend to compare to a 72H.

It is possible to special-order a narrow bass slide from Shires, and this definitely puts the feel of the instrument closer to a small Conn bass. You will probably want to go with a lightweight slide to get a little closer to the feel of the lighter braces of the Conn, and I'd recommend gold brass tubes. This would be a B62GLW Narrow - not sure exactly how they stamp that these days. I've tried one of those, and it's very nice.

The Narrow slide might make the TruBore valves interfere with your jaw or neck, and to get closer to an older bass feel you would probably want dependent rotary valves anyway.

If the tuning slide is a yellow C taper, you'll want to switch that out for a B taper, which is a bit smaller.

ttf_drizabone · Post by **ttf_drizabone** » Sun Oct 18, 2015 1:24 pm

thanks Gabe

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Mon Oct 19, 2015 8:06 am

What Gabe said!

Especially in an overall philosophy. The Conns and 72H in particular are very pretty far from what we typically do (I say this as a proud owner/player of a lovely vintage 72H). I would look to a more efficient horn with similar characteristics that is not a slavish copy. The specs seen fit the bill nicely in this way and may result in an even more versatile horn as it splits the difference between Bach/Hotlon size with Conn flexibility.

Only a couple of housekeeping things to modify. The slide code Gabe recommended would be a B62GLWCC (the CC for Conn Crook). I agree that this slide may be a better match for rotary valves than tru-bores. Not just because of your neck, but the narrow slides seem to balance better with the rotary valves. The resistance just matches up better.

For better or worse, we no longer offer a difference in tru-bore cap weights.

The tuning slide I may not be so quick to recommend a BYB. Gabe and I may have flip-flopped on this issue, as I find the BYC seems to line up better with BI taper bells. This pairing also feels more "Conn-like" to me.

Thanks to Gabe for his insight!

Ben

ttf_Gabe Langfur · Post by **ttf_Gabe Langfur** » Mon Oct 19, 2015 8:15 am

Quote from: griffinben on Oct 19, 2015, 08:06AMThe tuning slide I may not be so quick to recommend a BYB. Gabe and I may have flip-flopped on this issue, as I find the BYC seems to line up better with BI taper bells. This pairing also feels more "Conn-like" to me.

You may very well be right - I finally found my way back to a BYB on my BII taper bell.

On the other hand, I have a student with a B62/dependent rotor/BYB/BI 1Y trombone that plays great without feeling big at all. If I had to play it in a big orchestra setting or other loud environment I might not feel the same way, but for him it's perfect.

ttf_BassBoneFL · Post by **ttf_BassBoneFL** » Mon Oct 19, 2015 8:39 am

As Gene Pokorny says, "Equipment is like eyeglasses. What works for me might not have the same effect for you."

That said..... I have 2 VERY different Shires set ups for different styles. The one that I use in bigband/commercial situations is B62/ind rotors/BYB/BI2RLWT7. I find that it makes it easier for me to get a sound that works better with small bore tenors, bari saxes, etc. For orchestra, etc B62-78/ind axials/Bollinger TS/BII7GYM.

For me the pairing of the B TS with the BI bell and the C TS with the BII gives a more distinct sound/response characteristic for each set up. If I was to only have one set up for all occasions, I might pair them differently.

ttf_The Last Trombone · Fri Oct 23, 2015 6:56 pm

Is the mounting hardware of the current valve section to the bell the same as the older ones that had the greenhoe-ish valves?

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Mon Oct 26, 2015 5:21 am

Quote from: The Last Trombone on Oct 23, 2015, 06:56PMIs the mounting hardware of the current valve section to the bell the same as the older ones that had the greenhoe-ish valves?

The mounting hardware specs have been the same throughout the life of the horn. New and old components should fit. Note that sometimes older parts go through trauma that can knock braces out of alignment and will have to be adjusted if they do not easily fit.

Ben

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Mon Oct 26, 2015 5:40 pm

Hi, I've got a question about blending with a section. I currently play on a Shires with a 7Y bell, TW47 Slide, and a yellow brass tuning slide. I'm currently playing with people who use the Getzen 3047AFR. I'm looking for a rose brass bell to better blend with those horns, is a 2RVE bell a good way to go, or is there other options such as changing to a rose brass tuning slide?

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Tue Oct 27, 2015 5:07 am

I don't know if I would invest that much money in a bell for a college section. Sure, it'd be one thing if you were in a symphony and knew you'd be there long term... but if you're profile is still accurate and you're in a college ensemble, I'm not sure if you're going to see the benefit from it. You use plural for people using the 3047... are you in the same section with more than one? A wind ensemble? Or is there no bass trombone for the 3rd spot?

I went on a wild goose chase in my undergraduate next to a guy who played an all red TIS Greenhoe Conn bass and I played a Yamaha Xeno. While the Xeno wasn't the horn for me, the fact that I couldn't blend had little to do with the Xeno and his Greenhoe but mostly to do with my playing. Your situation could be the same or could be the reverse, where its their playing. Either way, unless you have utterly ruled out that as a possibility, you can spend a lot of money that would be better spent.

In hindsight, if I had spent all the dough I spent on horns and equipment on lessons with Doug Elliott, I'd be a much better player. But I didn't know this forum existed at the time, who he was, or much about equipment at all. Heck, even the energy and time I spent worrying about equipment and trying this that and the other, had I spent figuring out how to efficiently plan my day out and practice better I'd be a better player too. The Tuning CD is only $10. And while I'm on a full Shires horn myself now (with a 2RVET7 bell incidentally), that CD and a few lessons with Doug have done immeasurably more for my playing than the horn. If you can blend with the tuning CD daily for even 10-20 minutes and make sure you're playing on a mouthpiece that isn't fighting you, you'll be 9/10 of the way to blending with everybody better. At least that's my 2c. I'm not a professional, take it with a grain of salt.

Sorry for the derail, Ben.

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Tue Oct 27, 2015 5:13 am

Quote from: JHungate96 on Oct 26, 2015, 05:40PMHi, I've got a question about blending with a section. I currently play on a Shires with a 7Y bell, TW47 Slide, and a yellow brass tuning slide. I'm currently playing with people who use the Getzen 3047AFR. I'm looking for a rose brass bell to better blend with those horns, is a 2RVE bell a good way to go, or is there other options such as changing to a rose brass tuning slide?

I need a little more information before I can make any recommendation. What do you mean by "better blend" and what aspects are you not achieving toward this goal? Are you sure it's your horn and not the players around you? What kind of ensemble situation is this? Has this been something that has been going on for a long time, or is this fairly recent? Are the sounds coming out of the other instruments one you want for yourself or is it just a matter of this situation?

Looking at your profile, it says you are in college (and that you play a 7YM bell?). I am reticent to recommend an equipment change to anyone in your position; college is somewhat temporary and is populated with players of many different skill levels that can rotate often. If your trombone feels good and is getting the sound you want you should be able to make it work in your section. Making a "hard" jump to satisfy a temporary need may result in something that works great now but doesn't fit a year later. I might be more keen to offer more options in a different situation.

Nothing you are playing is terribly out of the ordinary, I might only recommend a lighter bell (7YLW) in the long run, but that's still debatable. I would need much more information about the situation to truly be able to make any clear recommendations. (One thing for sure is that I wouldn't recommend a 1G or 1GM. They don't get a similar sound to any of the 3047AFR's I've played).

I hope that helps,
Ben

ttf_ah64pilot · Post by **ttf_ah64pilot** » Tue Oct 27, 2015 8:33 am

Quote from: JHungate96 on Oct 26, 2015, 05:40PMHi, I've got a question about blending with a section. I currently play on a Shires with a 7Y bell, TW47 Slide, and a yellow brass tuning slide. I'm currently playing with people who use the Getzen 3047AFR. I'm looking for a rose brass bell to better blend with those horns, is a 2RVE bell a good way to go, or is there other options such as changing to a rose brass tuning slide?
I would never, NEVER adapt my Shires so that it matches a Getzen.

My advice, practice your way to the principal position and let them match you. IMO a good player on a Shires will sound much better than an equivalent on a Getzen...

Save your money.

ttf_watermailonman · Post by **ttf_watermailonman** » Tue Oct 27, 2015 9:02 am

Quote from: ah64pilot on Oct 27, 2015, 08:33AMI would never, NEVER adapt my Shires so that it matches a Getzen.

My advice, practice your way to the principal position and let them match you. IMO a good player on a Shires will sound much better than an equivalent on a Getzen...

Save your money.

No, it is probably a better idea to buy a Getzen

/Tom

ttf_Duffle · Post by **ttf_Duffle** » Wed Oct 28, 2015 1:52 am

Blending is an art, not simply a matter of buying new stuff.....

ttf_Gabe Langfur · Post by **ttf_Gabe Langfur** » Wed Oct 28, 2015 6:29 am

Quote from: Duffle on Oct 28, 2015, 01:52AMBlending is an art, not simply a matter of buying new stuff.....

ttf_tbathras · Post by **ttf_tbathras** » Wed Nov 04, 2015 3:44 pm

Hi Ben, et al,

I have a couple questions:

- Will a Shires bass slide fit a Holton TR181 (2013), unmodified?
- Can upgrading to a Shires slide enhance the 'blow' characteristics of the horn?
- If my long term plan is to end up with a Shires eventually, if I get outfitted with a slide now, there should be no issue in a few years mating that slide to a new Shires bell section, correct?

Thanks for your time,

Tim

ttf_mr.deacon · Post by **ttf_mr.deacon** » Wed Nov 04, 2015 4:10 pm

Quote from: tbathras on Nov 04, 2015, 03:44PM- Will a Shires bass slide fit a Holton TR181 (2013), unmodified?
- Can upgrading to a Shires slide enhance the 'blow' characteristics of the horn?
- If my long term plan is to end up with a Shires eventually, if I get outfitted with a slide now, there should be no issue in a few years mating that slide to a new Shires bell section, correct?
IMO you should get the leadpipe pulled on your TR181 slide and try out some of the Brass Ark's pipes. Swapping over to a Shires slide (unless if you bought a Nickel outers/Yellow crook slide...) would probably change the sound on your Holton quite a bit.

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Wed Nov 04, 2015 4:14 pm

Quote from: mr.deacon on Nov 04, 2015, 04:10PMIMO you should get the leadpipe pulled on your TR181 slide and try out some of the Brass Ark's pipes. Swapping over to a Shires slide (unless if you bought a Nickel outers/Yellow crook slide...) would probably change the sound on your Holton quite a bit.

Maybe he wants to change the sound quite a bit

I put a Shires slide on my Bach 42 before switching to a full Shires. Did the same thing on my Bach 50. Both made the horn play much better for me, but YMMV.

ttf_tbathras · Post by **ttf_tbathras** » Wed Nov 04, 2015 8:16 pm

Quote from: mr.deacon on Nov 04, 2015, 04:10PMIMO you should get the leadpipe pulled on your TR181 slide and try out some of the Brass Ark's pipes. Swapping over to a Shires slide (unless if you bought a Nickel outers/Yellow crook slide...) would probably change the sound on your Holton quite a bit.

One thing I'm trying to do is keep total cost in mind. Having the lead pipe pulled costs a bit, plus the costs for the new lead pipe. Even though that's not huge, but it could get up to a couple hundred pretty quick when you also tack on shipping the slide to get the pipe pulled or gas to drive down to a tech to do that. Also, this 181 silde isn't the best on earth, it's fine, but if were taking it to a tech I'd have them align it too. So you add all that up and you're easily at $300 give or take.

If I keep in mind that my ultimate goal is to own a shires, then, if possible, it might make sense to see if the slide that would be part of that shires setup also works with the Holton and take care of some of the nuisances around low C/B, etc that I don't have with my DG (however the DG as a horn does not sound like I want to) and get a nice lightning fast slide. That would be win/win as my current horn would play better while I save up to spend the big bucks on the bell setup and 100% of the money spent now would go right into the new horn at that later date.

Or maybe the new slide makes it so awesome, I'm just good to go!

In one of the bands I play in the other bass trombonist, who is professional, has an old Bach 50B3 that he changed to a shires slide and he said it was like night and day.

ttf_mr.deacon · Post by **ttf_mr.deacon** » Thu Nov 05, 2015 1:54 am

Maybe I'm one of the few but I honestly find very little difference in "blow" between my Edwards Slide and my Holton TR185 slide (while using the same leadpipe of course). Yes there is a difference but it's not night and day. Getting the leadpipe pulled is where I've found that night and day difference. I have a pretty good feeling your friend didn't have the leadpipe swapped out on his Bach slide before he switched over to the Shires slide either. From my experience spending the extra $1300+ on the Shires slide isn't worth the cash when you could swap out the leadpipe for a couple hundred bucks.

Also don't forget the leadpipe you buy for the TR181 could be used with your Shires and pulling the pipe on a horn more often than not adds value!

By the way I don't have experience with TR181's but if the slide uses the same threads as TR180's and older Holton's, a Shires slide will friction fit but not screw on.

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Thu Nov 05, 2015 10:24 am

It is important to remember that we engineered our parts to go with our horns, not to modify others. It can be a slippery slope.

I do not believe our bell receiver is compatible with Holton basses. That's okay, as it's relatively easy to swap this part out (which you'd have to do after the fact; we will not put this part in at the shop anymore).

The number one thing I'd be concerned with is making sure that the slide length between the Shires and the Holton are compatible. Holton slides (and Holtons in general) vary quite a bit from example to example, so I would hate to see you get something that put you in a place where good, intuitive intonation was nigh impossible. Both fundamental pitch and the overtone series.

I see that you are in or near Maine. There's got to be someone close to you with a Shires bass that you can at least sort of put on your horn to see if it would work well. You can also contact me directly at the shop and we can discuss options.

I feel for where you are at. I pieced together my Shires bass over two years, gradually acquiring the parts (mostly used) I needed to make it complete. What I have is a compromise. Not exactly what I would choose if I would build the horn to MY ideal specs. But it works. If you are aware of this compromise I'd be happy to help make recommendations as best I can.

_________________________________________________ _________________________________________________ ___________
What follows is a personal feeling: Some of the recent comments have deviated from the point of this thread, which is Shires focused. I've tried very hard to stay away from "This is better than that..." in terms of involving other companies, both in terms of modification and direct comparisons. Not that there isn't valuable and/or valid information, simply that I'd really like it if we stay focused on the product at hand. I feel like the most recent comments would work well in their own thread. It would be easier for inquiring minds to search for that subject as well.

ttf_tbathras · Post by **ttf_tbathras** » Thu Nov 05, 2015 10:30 am

Quote from: griffinben on Nov 05, 2015, 10:24AMIt is important to remember that we engineered our parts to go with our horns, not to modify others. It can be a slippery slope.

I do not believe our bell receiver is compatible with Holton basses. That's okay, as it's relatively easy to swap this part out (which you'd have to do after the fact; we will not put this part in at the shop anymore).

The number one thing I'd be concerned with is making sure that the slide length between the Shires and the Holton are compatible. Holton slides (and Holtons in general) vary quite a bit from example to example, so I would hate to see you get something that put you in a place where good, intuitive intonation was nigh impossible. Both fundamental pitch and the overtone series.

I see that you are in or near Maine. There's got to be someone close to you with a Shires bass that you can at least sort of put on your horn to see if it would work well. You can also contact me directly at the shop and we can discuss options.

I feel for where you are at. I pieced together my Shires bass over two years, gradually acquiring the parts (mostly used) I needed to make it complete. What I have is a compromise. Not exactly what I would choose if I would build the horn to MY ideal specs. But it works. If you are aware of this compromise I'd be happy to help make recommendations as best I can.

Hi Ben,

Thank you so much for getting back to me. Since it's not a "drop in" replacement, I think I'll skip it since I don't want to go down that slope of modifying this-and-that to fit whatever horn at that time.

If(when) I get a Shires, I think a huge part of it is the experience of going to the shop and getting fitted for it. I don't want to have the question "well, maybe this part will work better if ...". I'd rather get it right the first time.

Now I have to decide if I want to spend money, or how much, on the Holton in the interim.

Thanks again everyone for your input!

ttf_steve335 · Post by **ttf_steve335** » Sun Nov 08, 2015 12:45 pm

Small tenor instead of Alto.
I would like to use a small tenor instead of playing an Alto trombone.
I would probably want a 0.485 bore slide. What would be Shires' smallest bell, and what would you recommend ?
Many thanks

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Mon Nov 09, 2015 8:52 am

Quote from: steve335 on Nov 08, 2015, 12:45PMSmall tenor instead of Alto.
I would like to use a small tenor instead of playing an Alto trombone.
I would probably want a 0.485 bore slide. What would be Shires' smallest bell, and what would you recommend ?
Many thanks

This falls into the category of "it depends". Our smallest tenors still do not sound like alto trombones, so there is going to be a compromise here. Beyond that into what sound exactly are you looking for? Will this be a crossover instrument, and if so what other style/s do you hope to play with it?

Just so you know, I have one of the smallest Shires trombones I know of, a .485 bore gold brass slide (T85G) and a 7.25" yellow brass, lightweight bell with soldered wire (S1YLW7.25). It is a bright and peppy horn, good for a lot of lead and dixie. It sounds lovely as a small tenor in lieu of alto but isn't quite the same sound. It still sounds like it's in Bb. Altos have a higher, more singing sound to them, and their middle register sounds more like it than our upper register.

Let me know more about what your thoughts are and I can make some recommendations.

- Ben

ttf_btone · Post by **ttf_btone** » Fri Nov 13, 2015 8:52 pm

On page 36 Schiffko asked if his type 3 bell is a Conn or Bach style taper. I have wondered this also because I have a 3GMTB. I don't think anyone has said whether a type 3 bell is a TI or TII taper. Thanks.

ttf_sfboner · Post by **ttf_sfboner** » Sat Nov 14, 2015 12:26 am

Quote from: btone on Nov 13, 2015, 08:52PMOn page 36 Schiffko asked if his type 3 bell is a Conn or Bach style taper. I have wondered this also because I have a 3GMTB. I don't think anyone has said whether a type 3 bell is a TI or TII taper. Thanks.

I have two related follow up questions to this. I understand that this may be proprietary information, and I will also use the catalog euphemisms rather than name brands.

Is the standard Shires large tenor bell taper based on Elkhart models (as the new bells are based on New York designs), or is it more of its own thing? If the latter, do the VE bells have a different taper than the standard bells, closer to the Elkhart taper?

ttf_Gabe Langfur · Post by **ttf_Gabe Langfur** » Sat Nov 14, 2015 7:12 am

If a symphonic tenor trombone bell doesn't say TII, it is TI taper. That is true for type 3 bells, VE bells, etc. The exceptions might be the Chicago model and Vintage New York models, which are TII but might not say so.

The TI taper mandrel was made from measurements taken from Steve Shires' favorite Elkhart 8H bell from the mid 60s.

The TII mandrel was made from measurements taken from a particularly excellent Mount Vernon Bach 42 bell.

ttf_sfboner · Post by **ttf_sfboner** » Sat Nov 14, 2015 10:49 am

Thanks for that concise answer, Gabe.

ttf_trmbtrmb · Post by **ttf_trmbtrmb** » Sun Nov 15, 2015 7:49 am

Ben,

What do you find to be the major differences between the 7YLW and the TII7YLW?

Thanks

ttf_mr.deacon · Post by **ttf_mr.deacon** » Mon Nov 16, 2015 12:00 am

Who and a what is a Shires German Model Bass Trombone bell??? Would it be possible for me to order one of those bells in 9 1/2"?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/S-E-Shires-Custom-Bass-Trombone-German-Model-Bell-10-5-Silver-Lead-Pipe-/262145675200?hash=item3d09198fc0:g:AosAAOSwLzdWSMl2

ttf_harrison.t.reed · Mon Nov 16, 2015 12:34 am

Quote from: mr.deacon on Nov 16, 2015, 12:00AMWho and a what is a Shires German Model Bass Trombone bell??? Would it be possible for me to order one of those bells in 9 1/2"?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/S-E-Shires-Custom-Bass-Trombone-German-Model-Bell-10-5-Silver-Lead-Pipe-/262145675200?hash=item3d09198fc0:g:AosAAOSwLzdWSMl2

Looks like a Thein bell adapted for a Shires valve section.

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Mon Nov 16, 2015 2:13 am

This is something special.... I have a "German Model" tenor with a similar bell, but 8.5". As far as I know, this Setup is available exclusively from Musik Bertram in Freiburg, Germany. Bertram lets the bells make in Germany then sends them to Shires for adding the fittings and finishing.

ttf_bbocaner · Post by **ttf_bbocaner** » Mon Nov 16, 2015 5:44 am

Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Nov 16, 2015, 12:34AMLooks like a Thein bell adapted for a Shires valve section.

While some of the large German makers (like B&S and Miraphone) make their own bells, most of the smaller German shops buy bells made by a small number of specialty makers. Shires got the idea from one of their European resellers to buy bells made in the German trombone tradition from one of these makers and slap their engraving on it. So there's a very good chance that it was made in the same workshop where Thein bells are made, if not ordered to very similar specifications.

I'm not certain Shires still sells these, the last time I saw them actively sold by Shires was at least three years ago.

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Mon Nov 16, 2015 6:00 am

The 'German" bells are made in Germany and then fitted with Shires fitting to match up with the rest of the instrument. These are largely available only through Musik Bertram as a Shires-German trombone.

We have had German bells in the Hopedale factory...there's still a yellow brass bass bell left...and fit them to our horns. In general, they sound very nice and dense, but are less flexible than a lot of people in the American market currently seem to want from out horns (the 7YLW and BII 7YM are our most popular bells for tenor and bass, respectively). It's a great sound if you like it.

I hope that helps!
Ben

ttf_trombonehawaii · Post by **ttf_trombonehawaii** » Tue Nov 17, 2015 1:09 am

About a couple weeks ago, I ordered a Shires bass with: BII 7YM bell, BYB tuning slide, Independent Trubores, B62-78 handslide. The recommendation was made through talking with my lesson teacher, Robert Coomber at Horn Guys, and Ben at Shires. The bell is on backorder so I am using a friend's BII 7YHW10.5 (big bell, but still very responsive) while I wait for the BII 7YM...I think this is the only other Shires bass on the island....

I wanted a horn that could allow me to move a lot of air through it, without getting too blatty, but still flexible enough to use in smaller ensembles and solos. Even with the HW bell, this can deliver during my solo and ensemble playing. With axials, however, it was a little less nimble. The Trubores made a huge difference and am very happy; short throw, noticeably lighter than the axials, and easy to center on the open and valve sides. Looking forward to see what the BII 7YM bell can do

I also just want to send a shout out to Robert and Steve at the Horn Guys and Ben at Shires! These folks know the horns and how to achieve the sound you want. Their customer service is OUTSTANDING, truly amazing

ttf_mlarsson · Post by **ttf_mlarsson** » Tue Nov 17, 2015 10:31 am

Quote from: griffinben on Nov 16, 2015, 06:00AMThe 'German" bells are made in Germany and then fitted with Shires fitting to match up with the rest of the instrument. These are largely available only through Musik Bertram as a Shires-German trombone.

Would the name of this German bell maker be a commercial secret?

ttf_schiffko · Post by **ttf_schiffko** » Tue Nov 17, 2015 12:36 pm

Most likely its sandner

www.schallstueck.de

ttf_trmbtrmb · Post by **ttf_trmbtrmb** » Sun Nov 22, 2015 12:48 pm

Hey Ben,

I think my post got sucked up by some other questions. My question was how do you feel the 7YLW and TII 7YLW are different in regards to sound and player feedback? Also could you explain how the long slides differ. Thanks

Matt

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Mon Nov 23, 2015 7:14 am

Quote from: trmbtrmb on Nov 22, 2015, 12:48PMHey Ben,

I think my post got sucked up by some other questions. My question was how do you feel the 7YLW and TII 7YLW are different in regards to sound and player feedback? Also could you explain how the long slides differ. Thanks

Matt

The difference in the taper has to do with the spread of sound and density of core. The 7YLW has a relatively dense core that gets more diffuse as you move more sideways from it. The TII 7YLW has a wider sound with more sideways spread but a less dense core to it. Sometimes this less dense core will emphasize upper overtones, or more brilliance and is quicker to color. You may get more feedback behind the bell with the TII.

The long slides are 3/8" longer than our standard length slides. This can provide a little bit more stability and feel a little more "locked in" to the pitch than out standard slide length.

I hope that helps!
Ben

ttf_trmbtrmb · Post by **ttf_trmbtrmb** » Mon Nov 23, 2015 7:54 am

Thanks Ben!

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Tue Nov 24, 2015 11:15 am

Mr Griffin:

I traded a couple of horns via Brass Exchange and was able with the help of Doug Bert to get the Shires MD+ .508 Shires trombone.
I love how well in tune it plays and the great evenness all the way from the lower to the the high range. It reminds me
of the best of vintage King and Conn trombones all put into one! How is this horn being accepted by the playing
public? It is fantastic, but that is just my personal opinion. The thinner slide hand grip is a beautiful feature!

ttf_schiffko · Post by **ttf_schiffko** » Sun Nov 29, 2015 8:17 am

what is a 7GLW TB TII bell?
bach taper
goldbrass
lightweight
TB???