TromboneChat

There is a brass quintet booked to play 2 services Easter Sunday at a huge Presbyterian Church. They lost their tuba player due to personal emergency.
They asked me to step in and play the tuba parts on bass bone. Any advice on blending my bass bone as a tuba in a brass quintet? Range isn’t a problem, but a pedal A on bass bone does not sound like pedal A on a tuba!

Just play the parts (hope you don't have too many pedal As), be grateful that you were asked, and enjoy the gig. Be sensitive, and don't "blat!"

No one in the audience will know (or care) that the pedal A on bass trombone sounds different from that note on tuba. I actually prefer bass trombone to tuba on some brass quintet literature.

This is actually one of my pet peeves (bass bone playing tuba parts in quintet). I've been in this situation a few times, and it's a hard sell.

The first thing is obviously to keep your attacks from being too hard. Breath attacks, no hard tongue, don't get excited when you see big dynamics or fast notes. Second, I would take all the dynamics down one level at least. Beyond that, I would try to slur using valves as much as possible. This does two things - first, it takes the tongue out of the articulation, and second, it does a little bit to also remove the slide from the equation - another very non-tuba-ish element. Finally, I would suggest using a euphonium with a big mouthpiece if you can't play a tuba. Euph does not sound like tuba either, but it sounds closer to the tuba than a bass bone will.

The big thing with a tuba is presence. The big thing with bass bone is the attack. It's tough to reconcile those differences. It also depends a lot on the music. Easter tends to be full of fanfarish stuff with a lot of bright attacks. Don't get too excited, and ease off the gas even when you see FFs, accents and short articulations.

Just play and make music. Enjoy!

It is certainly going to be a different experience for the other members of the quintet. You are going be blending better with the trumpets and the tenor trombone. As Posaunus mentioned, the congregation will not notice. You should not try to imitate the sound of a tuba or use a euphonium, though hyperbolica has a point about not being too edgy. I spent seven years as the bass trombonist in a quintet. It’s a different sound.

Check out the Annapolis Brass Quintet and the American Brass Quintet.

hyperbolica wrote: ↑Wed Mar 29, 2023 3:21 pm This is actually one of my pet peeves (bass bone playing tuba parts in quintet). I've been in this situation a few times, and it's a hard sell.

I take issue with that negative characterization. Some of the pioneering brass quintets already mentioned - Annapolis and American - were formed and continue with bass trombone. If your repertoire is selected well and you're not just trying to imitate a tuba it can be a different blend that is decidedly better for some repertoire.

That said, this advice is right on:

The first thing is obviously to keep your attacks from being too hard. Breath attacks, no hard tongue, don't get excited when you see big dynamics or fast notes. Second, I would take all the dynamics down one level at least.

Play round and keep the dynamic down.

GabrielRice wrote: ↑Wed Mar 29, 2023 5:05 pm

hyperbolica wrote: ↑Wed Mar 29, 2023 3:21 pm This is actually one of my pet peeves (bass bone playing tuba parts in quintet). I've been in this situation a few times, and it's a hard sell.

I take issue with that negative characterization. Some of the pioneering brass quintets already mentioned - Annapolis and American - were formed and continue with bass trombone. If your repertoire is selected well and you're not just trying to imitate a tuba it can be a different blend that is decidedly better for some repertoire.

[If substituting for tuba} Play round and keep the dynamic down.

Thanks Gabe. Having [successfully] played for several years in a 2-trombone quintet, I totally agree. We sounded good, the audiences liked our music, and we enjoyed the paychecks.

Some repertoire sounds better with Bass Trombone than with Tuba - the light Baroque and Renaissance rep. is often lighter and with a better blend with a Bass Trombone on the bottom. Some stuff with a lot of technique or that benefits from a wider sound favours the Tuba. A lot of rep.really sounds equally well either way, and if we're talking about good players with good musical taste on either instrument, it will work. I've played in good quintets with both Bass and Tuba.

Jim Scott

GabrielRice wrote: ↑Wed Mar 29, 2023 5:05 pm I take issue with that negative characterization. Some of the pioneering brass quintets already mentioned - Annapolis and American - were formed and continue with bass trombone. If your repertoire is selected well and you're not just trying to imitate a tuba it can be a different blend that is decidedly better for some repertoire.

Well, I'd agree for a quintet intentionally formed around a bass trombone with literature specifically selected or adapted for that instrumentation, but that isn't this situation. The OP is subbing in for a tuba on tuba parts. Just tread lightly.

If you expect to be a versatile player you'd better learn to make your pedal A sound like a tuba when it's called for.

I have spent my entire career as a freelancer, learning to fit into any situation and sound appropriate - from brass quintet to orchestra to big band to salsa to small group jazz. You should learn to be flexible in sound, articulation, style, clef reading, transposing at sight, etc.

Too many players just sound the way they sound and accept that.

hyperbolica wrote: ↑Wed Mar 29, 2023 7:22 pm

GabrielRice wrote: ↑Wed Mar 29, 2023 5:05 pm I take issue with that negative characterization. Some of the pioneering brass quintets already mentioned - Annapolis and American - were formed and continue with bass trombone. If your repertoire is selected well and you're not just trying to imitate a tuba it can be a different blend that is decidedly better for some repertoire.

Well, I'd agree for a quintet intentionally formed around a bass trombone with literature specifically selected or adapted for that instrumentation, but that isn't this situation. The OP is subbing in for a tuba on tuba parts. Just tread lightly.

The OP says it's an Easter gig - unless they are playing the Malcolm Arnold for the prelude to the service, I think Bass Trombone will be fine. Hymns and similar material is exactly the type of literature that I think is often better on Bass than on Tuba. In any case, a good player on either one can make it work well. Like Doug said, you need to be able to get a good variety of sounds out of your horn to be able to play in different genres. John Rojak in the American Brass was a classmate of mine in school, and we played in orchestra together - he certainly sounds great in both those situations and also as a Broadway musician for many years.
If the OP hasn't done much of this kind of playing before, I think the advice that everyone gave him will help him a great deal - don't play too loud (good advice for everyone in a quintet!), listen to everyone else - match them in style, articulation, dynamics and pitch. To the OP I'll add one more thing - have fun! Quintet playing is enjoyable, and it's a chance for a good Bass Trombonist to really show off a good low range and a musical approach. I'll bet you have fun on this gig!

Jim Scott

I have done most of my quintet playing on the (tenor) trombone chair, partly with a good bass trombonist instead of tuba. And some where I played bass trombone myself.

Typically the tuba parts in a brass quintet are more challenging than your normal bass trombone parts. So in the first place it is about playing your part correctly. Depending on the repertoire and maybe your preparation time you might want to leave out or simplify selected spots. Most parts don't go super low, so it's more or less payable.

Generally in the brass quintet, but especially when replacing tuba with a bass trombone you hardly ever want an orchestral fortissimo, but normally a somehow focused and well-defined sound.
I would not even try to emulate a tuba sound, but have an appropriate bass trombone sound. American Brass Quintet has been mentioned and a great example in my view.

I really like having a trombone in a brass quartet because you can put the hornist in the center seat, have the two trombonist face one another. In a lot of places I've performed, having the hornist be able to bounce their sound against a wall gives a really nice blend.

I sat fifth chair in one brass quintet with both a bass trombone and a tuba (an F with 5 valves). Some rep worked better with the tuba and other rep worked better with the bass trombone. I liked the smaller tuba with a brass quintet since you don't want to overwhelm the rest of the group. A big orchestral tuba in brass quintet makes it sound like 4 guys vs. the tuba.

Most Easter music generally works better with bass trombone (at least my experience). Have fun and make great music.

Best way to blend as a bass trombonist covering tuba in a brass quintet - see if you can borrow a tuba!

BGuttman wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 1:19 pm Most Easter music generally works better with bass trombone (at least my experience).
Have fun and make great music.

Also my experience after playing many Easter / church gigs.

I've been in your position on many, many occasions and not by accident but by design. A brass quintet leader remarked that he was having problems finding tuba players so I said, "How about if I were to play the tuba parts on bass trombone?" He said sure and after that we played church services mostly utilizing the "Canadian Brass" arrangements and some of the Robert King, etc. This worked because I could back off, warm up my sound and stayed relaxed on the technical passages and breathed often.

No need to sound "like a tuba," just play with a fat, lush bass trombone sound. Oh, and if some stuff written is too low, play it up an octave.

Hope this doesn't stray too far from this thread, but what are your thoughts on playing the tuba parts on a contra? Why? Why not?

Trombonjon wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 10:36 pm Hope this doesn't stray too far from this thread, but what are your thoughts on playing the tuba parts on a contra? Why? Why not?

Wouldn't recommend this. Hardly anyone is as fluent on contra as on bass, intonation can be more challenging, sound will be too dominant and most important: You don't want to hold that thing for all those quintet pieces.

Pretty much the same reasons you wouldn't use a sousaphone
But if course, you could.
Does anybody make a contrabass sackbut?

Split the difference and use a cimbasso!

Actually, only half joking. When I was in grad school, the faculty brass quintet at Shenandoah did a concert where he played a cimbasso. I think it was for space reasons. I don't remember exactly all the context but I do remember thinking it sounded great. I think they were doing a lot of Gabrielli, so that kind of makes sense.

In the same spot this Easter, here’s some advice I got from Dave Taylor:

“You’re not gonna sound like a tuba unless you play tuba, treat it like you’re a cello in a quartet, play round and support. It’ll be a different sound but if you’re making a good sound no one will care.”

Matt K wrote: ↑Fri Mar 31, 2023 7:56 am Split the difference and use a cimbasso!

You say this half joking, but I completely seriously think that an F cimbasso is the best instrument for the 5th book. IMO, even a small bass tuba sticks out too much from the other instruments (even with a fabulous tubist at the helm), while bass trombone or euphonium aren't weighty enough to be completely satisfying as the foundation. Cimbasso is the perfect in-between, and it can effectively play quintet parts written for either tuba or bass trombone.

Well, I can double on bass trombone, but I certainly can't get my hands on a cimbasso, and I don't have (or play) a tuba.
I guess two trombones will have to do to show the glory at Easter. I'm confident that the congregation will be fine with that.

If you're playing the Malcolm Arnold or Victor Ewald quintet that's a different story, since works such as those emphasize the "tubistic" quality of the bottom line.

Posaunus wrote: ↑Fri Mar 31, 2023 5:20 pm Well, I can double on bass trombone, but I certainly can't get my hands on a cimbasso, and I don't have (or play) a tuba.
I guess two trombones will have to do to show the glory at Easter. I'm confident that the congregation will be fine with that.

If you're playing the Malcolm Arnold or Victor Ewald quintet that's a different story, since works such as those emphasize the "tubistic" quality of the bottom line.

I've done more BQ work on bass trombone than on tuba, it's not like it's a BAD choice. The cimbasso is just the "ideal world" solution IMO. I don't have one either!

One of my students played the bottom part in Ewald #1 with a quintet on Bass Trombone on his Senior Recital some years ago and it worked very well. I've also played the Ewald Quintets with other groups with both Tubas and Bass Trombones playing the bottom part and it works with either. The Arnold is another matter - all of that technique is a challenge for most players.

Jim Scott

Original poster here. Had our first and only “dress rehearsal” with choir and ORGANIST! OMG! The tunes we play by ourselves are great. But as soon as the pipe organist starts playing all bets are off. He is so loud we can’t be heard at all. Our musical director said don’t even try. Rehearsal was over 2 hours ago and my ears are still ringing.
Oh well, it’s a good paycheck!

I got a last minute gig myself, playing trumpet parts on alto trombone (an octave down), with a string quintet, accompanying the choir and soloists.

I guess trumpet players were in short supply this Easter.

The strings are out front and I'm sitting behind the choir.
The woman in front of me was horrified at first sight but after the rehearsal she turned around and said she loves sitting in front of me.

bigbandbone wrote: ↑Sat Apr 08, 2023 12:04 pm Original poster here. Had our first and only “dress rehearsal” with choir and ORGANIST! OMG! The tunes we play by ourselves are great. But as soon as the pipe organist starts playing all bets are off. He is so loud we can’t be heard at all. Our musical director said don’t even try. Rehearsal was over 2 hours ago and my ears are still ringing.
Oh well, it’s a good paycheck!

Organists are always a challenge. For some reason, they always try to speed up. Maybe it's an attempt to compensate for the response of the instrument, but we start at a nice tempo and suddenly we are racing.

I loved playing Easter services; except for having to play "Christ the Lord is Risen Today" umpteen million times. Boy that gets old fast.

Seems a lot of churches are having to pare down the brass. I used to have a regular quartet with organ for Christmas and Easter and then they went to 2 trumpets only. Then the church went "out of business" -- I guess the neighborhood went downhill and the plate collections weren't enough to support the staff.

Good luck to all of you playing tomorrow.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Sat Apr 08, 2023 2:29 pm

bigbandbone wrote: ↑Sat Apr 08, 2023 12:04 pm Original poster here. Had our first and only “dress rehearsal” with choir and ORGANIST! OMG! The tunes we play by ourselves are great. But as soon as the pipe organist starts playing all bets are off. He is so loud we can’t be heard at all. Our musical director said don’t even try. Rehearsal was over 2 hours ago and my ears are still ringing.
Oh well, it’s a good paycheck!

Organists are always a challenge. For some reason, they always try to speed up. Maybe it's an attempt to compensate for the response of the instrument, but we start at a nice tempo and suddenly we are racing.

I loved playing Easter services; except for having to play "Christ the Lord is Risen Today" umpteen million times. Boy that gets old fast.

Seems a lot of churches are having to pare down the brass. I used to have a regular quartet with organ for Christmas and Easter and then they went to 2 trumpets only. Then the church went "out of business" -- I guess the neighborhood went downhill and the plate collections weren't enough to support the staff.

Good luck to all of you playing tomorrow.

For some reason this particular church is paying very well! I’ll take it without complaint.