Bringing an Instrument up to Pitch

[ttf_anonymous]

I own a 1927 Conn Double Bell Euphonium that is in terrific shape - valves are excellent, finish is good, minimal dings, etc. The only problem is that with all the tuning slide pushed in all the way it still plays almost 25 cents flat. Given the manufacturing date, I can't imagine it would be low pitch. Using different mouthpieces has little to no effect.

I am considering having the instrument cut to bring it up to pitch. Before I proceed, I would like to know if anybody has any experience doing this and what, if any, problems might result. Thank you in advance for your responses.

[ttf_BGuttman]

I have found that Low Pitch is actually A=435, which makes many Low Pitch instruments flat.  Removing about a centimeter from all legs of the tuning slide should fix the problem.  You may not need to change any of the valve slides.

[ttf_Euphmeister]

Thanks, Bruce. I was thinking along those lines that about 1 cm would probably solve the problem. There is enough length with the individual valve slides to pull those if things get too sharp.

[ttf_svenlarsson]

I did that on some oldies, tubas and euphoniums and trombones. Two centimeter. Then you may have the possibility to have a little room for tuning. Very little actually.
100 cent is almost 16 centimeters all together, 8 centimeters on the slide. 50 cent is about 4 centimeters on the slide (50 cent lower then 440 is 430 so 25 cent lower would be about 435) 25 cent lower would be allmost 2 centimeter on the slide.
So to make a 25 (435) cent low horn you cut 2 centimeter on all four legs to make it 25 cent higher (440).
Understand?

[ttf_Sswann]

I have questions on a related note. My ~1978 Conn 88H, which has always been fine (1/2" or so of the tuning slide pulled), is now flat. I took it and had the leadpipe pulled, and some minor dents removed (no solder was disturbed). Now all the tuning slides are all the way in, and still flat.  I figure it has to be something regarding the leadpipe. They had an 88h pipe at the shop and put a collar on for a press fit to replace my rotted one. I got a Shires 2 pressfit pipe later, plays better but still flat.

I guess I can start cutting, but I'd like to understand why it changed. Could it really have gotten that much longer?

[ttf_BillO]

This may sometimes be related to your oral cavity.  Mine is very large.  For me, this has caused the problem you speak of.  I have encountered this problem at least 3 times in my life.   Each time it has taken a considerable amount of playing to correct it.  2 years at least.  The only reason I have had to do this multiple times is that I have put down the instrument twice in my life to several years due to pressing concerns (read - career).

I don't know how long you've been playing, but if you have an atypically large oral cavity you will naturally play flatter than the average.  This requires a little practice to alleviate.  You need to search for the most efficient configuration of embouchure and oral cavity configuration (tongue position, jaw position, lip set ... etc.) to get that 'purity' of tone.  This happens when the instrument itself is happy and when it occurs your tone will be vibrant, in tune and centered.  Search for it.  It may be the most difficult to find for the notes that fall on the bass clef, but once you have mastered that realm, you have 50% of what you need.

A good teacher will certainly help if this is something you are willing an able to attend to. They can listen objectively and provide feedback you can't get by woodshedding by yourself.

[ttf_mr.deacon]

Quote from: Sswann on Apr 27, 2017, 08:41PMI have questions on a related note. My ~1978 Conn 88H, which has always been fine (1/2" or so of the tuning slide pulled), is now flat. I took it and had the leadpipe pulled, and some minor dents removed (no solder was disturbed). Now all the tuning slides are all the way in, and still flat.  I figure it has to be something regarding the leadpipe. They had an 88h pipe at the shop and put a collar on for a press fit to replace my rotted one. I got a Shires 2 pressfit pipe later, plays better but still flat.

I guess I can start cutting, but I'd like to understand why it changed. Could it really have gotten that much longer?
That sounds fishy... You almost never have to get Conn instruments cut usually that's more of a Bach 42 or 50B thing players have to do when they use larger mouthpieces.

Could it possibly have anything to do with the way you play? Did your pitch center change or did you switch to a different mouthpiece? Like BillO said you might just have a very low pitch center.

It could also be possible you have a leak that popped up somewhere...

[ttf_svenlarsson]

Quote from: Sswann on Apr 27, 2017, 08:41PMI have questions on a related note. My ~1978 Conn 88H, which has always been fine (1/2" or so of the tuning slide pulled), is now flat. I took it and had the leadpipe pulled, and some minor dents removed (no solder was disturbed). Now all the tuning slides are all the way in, and still flat.  I figure it has to be something regarding the leadpipe. They had an 88h pipe at the shop and put a collar on for a press fit to replace my rotted one. I got a Shires 2 pressfit pipe later, plays better but still flat.

I guess I can start cutting, but I'd like to understand why it changed. Could it really have gotten that much longer?
Sounds like there is some witchcraft involved.
Unless you have drasticly changed you playing or suddenly got a bigger mouth cavity, the horns must have changed some way.
 
The lenght can not have changed that much.

My guess is that something is stuck in the horn somewhere. In the elad pipe? Somewhere in the horn.

[ttf_harrison.t.reed]

When you cut it, cut it so you still have some play. Bringing it up to 440 pushed all the way in will still be frustrating. I'd cut it to 442 or 444.

[ttf_john sandhagen]

Many early (pre WWII) instruments are low, coupled with our penchant for larger mouthpieces...from low to flat.Cutting the length is the only answer.

RE the 88H, if it was OK before the leadipe swap, it's probably the leadpipe.  The new pipe may be loose/leaking, or may just be directing you to play on the low side.  Since it's not normal on an 88H, have a couple other players test it, and retest with the old leadpipe...if the new leadpipe does work better, then I guess you'd need to cut it, but there may also be better pipes that don't requires surgery.

[ttf_john sandhagen]

Many early (pre WWII) instruments are low, coupled with our penchant for larger mouthpieces...from low to flat.Cutting the length is the only answer.

RE the 88H, if it was OK before the leadipe swap, it's probably the leadpipe.  The new pipe may be loose/leaking, or may just be directing you to play on the low side.  Since it's not normal on an 88H, have a couple other players test it, and retest with the old leadpipe...if the new leadpipe does work better, then I guess you'd need to cut it, but there may also be better pipes that don't requires surgery.