F$#king high G

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cozzagiorgi
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F$#king high G

Post by cozzagiorgi » Wed Jul 24, 2019 2:31 am

I am angry!
I think I am quite a competent trombone player. Good high range, good low range, nice sound, yadda yadda... playing for more than 20 years and studied with great teachers.

My high range goes to about a high F. Two octaves above middle F. And I can easily use the range until C in a musical context.

BUT if I miss notes its the G or the Ab (octave above top of the bass clef staff). Did that on all trombones I ever played. And boy did I play nice bones! Even chipped a G recently in a solo competition.

I mean... its not really high, but those notes never feel good for me.

How about you guys? Anyone know this problem and found a solution? How would you practice that stuff?
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Pre59
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Re: F$#king high G

Post by Pre59 » Wed Jul 24, 2019 5:29 am

Assuming that your horns have been in good working order and that your mouthpieces are within a fairly "normal" specification range, I'd suggest that you spend a lot more time practicing in the middle register, even to the exclusion of the outer registers, and see if this helps. It helps me, and if not the solution then at least no harm done.
norbie2018
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Re: F$#king high G

Post by norbie2018 » Wed Jul 24, 2019 5:51 am

It's my understanding that the Ab mentioned is a difficult note on trombone to play constantly. I've also had trouble with the G you described, but it is much more consistent now. It would take too long to describe what I'm doing here; email me if you'd like to have a more in-depth discussion.
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cozzagiorgi
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Re: F$#king high G

Post by cozzagiorgi » Wed Jul 24, 2019 6:32 am

Pre59 wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 5:29 am
Assuming that your horns have been in good working order and that your mouthpieces are within a fairly "normal" specification range, I'd suggest that you spend a lot more time practicing in the middle register, even to the exclusion of the outer registers, and see if this helps. It helps me, and if not the solution then at least no harm done.

What do you mean by practicing in the middle register? Leaving out everything above F?
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sterb225
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Re: F$#king high G

Post by sterb225 » Wed Jul 24, 2019 6:32 am

buzz those notes on mpc ... then play them on the horn ... them on the mpc ... then on the horn ... every session should have buzzing.
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cozzagiorgi
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Re: F$#king high G

Post by cozzagiorgi » Wed Jul 24, 2019 6:38 am

sterb225 wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 6:32 am
buzz those notes on mpc ... then play them on the horn ... them on the mpc ... then on the horn ... every session should have buzzing.
Never buzzed a lot. Although I know it helps me... thanks for the reminder :-)
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Basbasun
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Re: F$#king high G

Post by Basbasun » Wed Jul 24, 2019 6:43 am

sterb225 wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 6:32 am
buzz those notes on mpc ... then play them on the horn ... them on the mpc ... then on the horn ... every session should have buzzing.
YES! I am no big fan of buzzing, but this is one situation when buzzing is a good tool.

Actually I did chip lots of G:s and Ab:s the first 20 years of tromboning.
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cozzagiorgi
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Re: F$#king high G

Post by cozzagiorgi » Wed Jul 24, 2019 7:02 am

Basbasun wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 6:43 am

Actually I did chip lots of G:s and Ab:s the first 20 years of tromboning.
If even you had problems with that, then there is still hope for me :-)

Interesting enough, in my first 3 years of trombone playing I was absolutely unable to play a LOW G at the bottom of the bass clef staff. It really became a problem for some time. But I don'teven remember what I did to go away.

Looks like Gs are at my break points.
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elmsandr
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Re: F$#king high G

Post by elmsandr » Wed Jul 24, 2019 7:19 am

I need to work on this as well... my current plan:

1 Re-learn the buzz. If we can find the old thread on Sam's "breaking the embouchure code", he had a great method there similar to an exercise I learned a long time ago as well.. Play pitches (maybe moving up and down a scale a note or two), keep emb. fixed, remove horn entirely, free buzz the same, keep emb fixed still, buzz on MouthPiece, keep emb fixed, play again on horn. Change notes and continue. Isolate some pitches and overtones to create the rich sound you want on those pitches. Re-learn the buzz on each pitch through muscle memory.

2 Re-learn the positions... Buzz being centered needs to match the slide (duh). I find that my right hand tends to drift every few years back to the horn I learned on, not the one I am playing currently.

For me it is Bb-F# in this area. I would rather pick off a C or D above them than anything in this range. Don't know if the horns are just a bit less focused in this area, but wow does it make me feel like I am out of shape every time I crack in this area.

Cheers,
Andy
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cozzagiorgi
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Re: F$#king high G

Post by cozzagiorgi » Wed Jul 24, 2019 7:32 am

elmsandr wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 7:19 am

1 Re-learn the buzz. If we can find the old thread on Sam's "breaking the embouchure code", he had a great method there similar to an exercise I learned a long time ago as well.. Play pitches (maybe moving up and down a scale a note or two), keep emb. fixed, remove horn entirely, free buzz the same, keep emb fixed still, buzz on MouthPiece, keep emb fixed, play again on horn. Change notes and continue. Isolate some pitches and overtones to create the rich sound you want on those pitches. Re-learn the buzz on each pitch through muscle memory.
You mean like that at 2:19?
https://youtu.be/hsXVZTiIH2A

Cant buzz like that in the range of high G. No way.... but I can learn it.
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Doug Elliott
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Re: F$#king high G

Post by Doug Elliott » Wed Jul 24, 2019 7:45 am

I would need to actually see you play, but I bet you can't freebuzz in that range and you probably start your day too low.

I would teach you how to freebuzz correctly, and start your warm-up higher, eventually to start on that G and Ab so it becomes a new normal and you know exactly where it is.
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cozzagiorgi
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Re: F$#king high G

Post by cozzagiorgi » Wed Jul 24, 2019 8:04 am

Doug Elliott wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 7:45 am
I would need to actually see you play, but I bet you can't freebuzz in that range and you probably start your day too low.

I would teach you how to freebuzz correctly, and start your warm-up higher, eventually to start on that G and Ab so it becomes a new normal and you know exactly where it is.
Doug you are right. I can not free buzz in that range. My freebuzzing range is actually very limited.

Knowing exactly where it is... you are in to something asI always wonder where the G is. Although I can hear it pretty well.

I'll pm you.
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Pre59
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Re: F$#king high G

Post by Pre59 » Wed Jul 24, 2019 8:18 am

cozzagiorgi wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 6:32 am
Pre59 wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 5:29 am
Assuming that your horns have been in good working order and that your mouthpieces are within a fairly "normal" specification range, I'd suggest that you spend a lot more time practicing in the middle register, even to the exclusion of the outer registers, and see if this helps. It helps me, and if not the solution then at least no harm done.

What do you mean by practicing in the middle register? Leaving out everything above F?
Yes. Practice the usual long tones and flex's etc but from say, C in the stave, up to the first F out of it. Your middle range may not be quite as strong as you think that it is, and IMO thinking of the the higher register as sitting on the middle register is better than having higher range that is not connected.
But, if it's not the solution for you, at least you'll have done some good core practice.
hyperbolica
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Re: F$#king high G

Post by hyperbolica » Wed Jul 24, 2019 10:24 am

I used to crack a lot of notes, not necessarily just G and Ab. That changed for me when I started using a bigger diameter rim with Doug Elliott's system. I moved from a 5g to a xt104G cup.

Another source of cracking is not hearing the note properly in your head. If you have the G and Ab in a passage, sing that passage and make sure you know what it sounds like before you play it. Maybe do this in conjunction with buzzing. Make sure singing and buzzing are fairly in tune before playing the note in practice.

Also you might try playing the notes in alternate positions. Ab may not work in 1st position for you, but G should work in 4th.

One exercise I've done for problem notes is during a practice session, just randomly try to pick off one of those notes out of context. Do it at the end of each phrase in Rochut, or at the end of every line or once a breath. Do it at random volume levels.

Finally, I would practice lip slurs - F G Ab Bb going against the grain from first to #2 to 3. Maybe include high C in there. Start a scalewise pattern of lip slurring a 5th from tuning Bb C D Eb F and back down, then start again on C, and go on up, covering the G and Ab thoroughly.

Best of luck.
bigbandbone
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Re: F$#king high G

Post by bigbandbone » Wed Jul 24, 2019 10:39 am

+1 on alternate positions.
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cozzagiorgi
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Re: F$#king high G

Post by cozzagiorgi » Wed Jul 24, 2019 11:42 am

hyperbolica wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 10:24 am

Finally, I would practice lip slurs - F G Ab Bb going against the grain from first to #2 to 3. Maybe include high C in there. Start a scalewise pattern of lip slurring a 5th from tuning Bb C D Eb F and back down, then start again on C, and go on up, covering the G and Ab thoroughly.

Best of luck.
Thanks for that. I can and do that kind of lip slurs. The Gs and Abs sound ok and speak quite easily when doing them. It's when I'm jumping around in the ranges when it gets hard. Or on melodies a la Rochut.
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