Aperture shape

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Elow
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Aperture shape

Post by Elow »

So, brian hecht has a model that he drew of what he thinks is the most effective aperture. I think it’s great, and i love that he drew it out because that really helps me understand it. I’m just a little confused about it. The hole is a circle, but my aperture is not a circle, or anything close to it. Mine is more like a football, and i’m not sure if i’m doing something wrong, or if it’s personal. I would love to hear others thought, and maybe a certain embouchure guru ;) He showed me it in a lesson but i think he posted it on his instagram, i’ll post it if i can find it
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harrisonreed
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Re: Aperture shape

Post by harrisonreed »

I don't 100% agree with that. If all the forces went to the center like that you'd end up with a duck face.

I'm not saying Brian Hecht doesn't know what he's talking about (far from it), but I don't think that diagram is a good representation of an embouchure.

There is an entire component (or three) missing from that diagram. It doesn't show how the aperture is moved up or down in relation to the teeth, or how the angle of the aperture (into the mouthpiece cup) is controlled, or the shelf of the chin is maintained.

The aperture is not a circle, but he might just be using a symbol to represent it. To me the embouchure is a crescent shaped space between the two shelves formed by the lips, and it MUST be dynamic. The space not only needs to get wider and thinner, but also must angle up and down.

He's telling people to not stretch the lips across the teeth, which is good, but there is so much more to it than that.
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Re: Aperture shape

Post by mrdeacon »

harrisonreed wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 8:32 pm The aperture is not a circle, but he might just be using a symbol to represent it.
From what I've seen on social media he is a very visual-based/mental picture kinda guy. I don't like that diagram either. Though I'm sure for certain people it will make things click for them!
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Re: Aperture shape

Post by paulyg »

Yeah, that's not very instructive. It obviously works for him- but I have a feeling he's got some work to do on communicating what he's actually doing.
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Doug Elliott
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Re: Aperture shape

Post by Doug Elliott »

Most players and teachers have no idea what they're actually doing, they just use the "mental picture" approach.

I have only seen one player who actually had a pretty much round aperture. If I can find that video in an old hard drive, I'll try to post a picture.
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Re: Aperture shape

Post by Burgerbob »

I remember this instagram post and thread. I have been working on my aperture and I thought I remembered Brian's diagram- perhaps I had stumbled upon what he drew!

Nope, most of the arrows are backwards from what I thought. Harrison is spot on about "duck face" which is a direction I've gone a couple times.

FWIW, Brian seems to have deleted this instagram post at some point... I could only find it here.
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Re: Aperture shape

Post by Doug Elliott »

People are missing the fact that the aperture is not a hole. It's not an opening. It's an opening and closing that produces the individual puffs of air that are the vibration of sound. There's absolutely no reason to suppose that it should be round, or supported on all sides.
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Re: Aperture shape

Post by AndrewMeronek »

Doug Elliott wrote: Tue Nov 14, 2023 8:19 pm People are missing the fact that the aperture is not a hole. It's not an opening. It's an opening and closing that produces the individual puffs of air that are the vibration of sound. There's absolutely no reason to suppose that it should be round, or supported on all sides.
Right. Clarinet reeds certainly aren't round.
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Re: Aperture shape

Post by Kbiggs »

AndrewMeronek wrote: Wed Nov 15, 2023 5:18 am
Doug Elliott wrote: Tue Nov 14, 2023 8:19 pm People are missing the fact that the aperture is not a hole. It's not an opening. It's an opening and closing that produces the individual puffs of air that are the vibration of sound. There's absolutely no reason to suppose that it should be round, or supported on all sides.
Right. Clarinet reeds certainly aren't round.
No, but if we insist on comparisons, then a bassoon reed is much more like a trombonist’s embouchure.
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Re: Aperture shape

Post by Doug Elliott »

No it's actually not.
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Re: Aperture shape

Post by harrisonreed »

Doug Elliott wrote: Wed Nov 15, 2023 10:48 am No it's actually not.
+ 1
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Re: Aperture shape

Post by Kbiggs »

Doug Elliott wrote: Wed Nov 15, 2023 10:48 am No it's actually not.
Well now, this is interesting.

By saying “more like,” I was referring to the supposed shape of the aperture, or what many of us were incorrectly taught was the “correct shape” of the “aperture.” Also that both lips have an affect on the buzz. And that a clarinet reed is only one reed. There’s probably other things.

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Doug Elliott
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Re: Aperture shape

Post by Doug Elliott »

If you're only talking about aperture shape I suppose they are similar. But that aperture 's vibration is practically opposite between bassoon and trombone.
The bassoon reed is in a "normally open" configuration, and the air passing through it causes it to close, then the stiffness of the reeds causes it to open back to its normally open position.
A brass embouchure is in a "normally closed" configuration, and the air passing through it causes it to open, then the springiness of the lips causes it to close back to its normally closed position.

In both cases that action is helped to continue by the acoustics of the standing wave, which is a continuous outbound wave, reflected back as an inbound wave which bounces off the lips (or reeds) and helps to close and reopen them. All at the speed of sound, and the frequency of the note you're playing.

The other difference is that (as far as I know) bassoon or other double reeds are two equal reeds designed to vibrate equally. The brass embouchure is considerably variable, and one lip is always predominant and moves much more than the other, more like a single reed.
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Olofson
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Re: Aperture shape

Post by Olofson »


The youtube clip above show how the apertue(s) actually looks.
Brian Hecht was in my oppinion not meaning to descibe the aperture at all, but the imaginary movement ov the face muscles around the aperture.
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Re: Aperture shape

Post by Burgerbob »

I have also been told to keep the aperture round... And it was very helpful advice.
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Re: Aperture shape

Post by GabrielRice »

Even as technology has advanced to allow us to see what is happening in and around a brass embouchure, we are only seeing it in retrospect. In the moment of producing sound we are always dealing in metaphor and visualization. The most effective metaphors and visualizations are almost always closely related to what is actually physically happening, but they are not exactly the same thing.

Furthermore, the most effective metaphors/visualizations for one person do not necessarily work for another person. If conceiving of the aperture as round is helpful for Brian and Aidan, more power to them.
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Re: Aperture shape

Post by GabrielRice »

For example, I believe Doug 100% when he says the aperture is an opening and closing, and that the resting place in between sounds has the lips closed. I have no doubt that that is what actually happens, and I know for a fact that the more I've cultivated that kind of resting position over the years the more efficient and consistent my own tone production has gotten.

HOWEVER, I also know that if I *think* about starting with my lips closed at this point in my life, I will usually have a delay for the first articulation of a passage. My resting position to start sound *feels* like my lips are slightly open, especially for a breath start. I also know that when I diminuendo to no sound and take the mouthpiece off my face my lips are closed. Contradiction? I don't think so. I think my playing position to start is such that the lips *can* close completely, even if that's not the position they are in when I begin the sound.
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Re: Aperture shape

Post by Wilktone »

I agree that the use of metaphors and analogy are very helpful. I also feel that what works for one student may not show similar results for another. So the more interesting question is what are the circumstances where thinking of a "round" aperture could be helpful?

One thought there, many brass musicians position their mouth corners in the wrong place or move them to different places while they play (think the smile embouchure, for example). If thinking about making the aperture "round" helps them keep their corners in the correct spot, then it can be useful. But another player might have the mouth corners positioned too puckered. In that case I can see how trying to make their aperture shape "round" would be the opposite of what they want to do.

And in all cases I feel it's important for both the teacher and student to distinguish between analogy and reality.
GabrielRice wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2023 7:53 am My resting position to start sound *feels* like my lips are slightly open, especially for a breath start.
Interesting. When your mouth is completely at rest (not playing) do you have your lips slightly open? If not, what is different from just before you commence blowing? Is it any different for you if you use a nose inhalation?

For me personally, if I try to start with my lips in an open position I have to physically and consciously open my lips before I attack the pitch. I didn't always, I used to open my mouth pretty wide to inhale and then tried to get the lips into position as soon as I began blowing. It took some practice to become more comfortable with it, but I find everything to be more stable by keeping my lips just touching (along with mouthpiece pressure closer to actual playing) and breathing in through the mouth corners.

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harrisonreed
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Re: Aperture shape

Post by harrisonreed »

I'm thinking about what I do, and I don't think my lips are completely sealed when I start to play a note. They are touching, but not sealed. They start vibrating with the rest of the horn after the articulation. If I want to free buzz or buzz on a mouthpiece, then they have to be sealed shut to start.

I try to keep them somewhat spread vertically, and compressed horizontally while playing. This makes it so there is a lot less tension while I'm playing.

This goes along with the famous Lindberg buzzing experiment -- when I pull the mouthpiece out of the leadpipe while playing a note, it immediately becomes a stream of air with no sound, and my aperture is OPEN.
Last edited by harrisonreed on Thu Nov 16, 2023 8:07 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Aperture shape

Post by Wilktone »

What do you mean by "sealed?" What do you mean by "touching?" Is there a hole between your lips before you blow or not?
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Re: Aperture shape

Post by harrisonreed »

Wilktone wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2023 8:04 am What do you mean by "sealed?" What do you mean by "touching?" Is there a hole between your lips before you blow or not?
Yeah, see the edits above, but yes, when I make my embouchure and blow, there is no sound because the air passes freely through the aperture. So they feel like they are touching but there is an open aperture. No buzz, no real resistance. It's a very small aperture.
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Re: Aperture shape

Post by GabrielRice »

Wilktone wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2023 7:58 am
GabrielRice wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2023 7:53 am My resting position to start sound *feels* like my lips are slightly open, especially for a breath start.
Interesting. When your mouth is completely at rest (not playing) do you have your lips slightly open? If not, what is different from just before you commence blowing? Is it any different for you if you use a nose inhalation?
Before I make sound, yes, the lips are slightly open in the center. I breathe from that set through either or both my nose and corners (though I don't pull my corners back the way Doug does - I find that does not work well for me). When the sound finishes, my lips are closed. They open again slightly in the center when I take a breath.

Keep in mind, I am primarily a bass trombone player, and when I play tenor I use the same rim I play on bass. There's a lot of room in there...
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Re: Aperture shape

Post by Richard3rd »

There is a trumpet instructor on Youtube that uses straws to describe aperture size and shape. Low notes are a regular straw and high notes are a cocktail straw. He actually had examples of, I think, four sizes of straws to illustrate the technique. This concept revolutionized my playing on all instruments. My range went up. My endurance went up.

He teaches other concepts including tongue arch too.

I think the drawing here is right on.
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Re: Aperture shape

Post by BGuttman »

Sam Burtis used to talk about a saloon door in a Western movie as an analogy of lip position. If you adjust the saloon doors so that they are too tight, the actor can't barge through them to make an entrance. Adjust them too loose and they don't swing closed enough. I think that we are all dancing around this idea: lips too tight is no good; lips too loose is no good. There is a proper amount of pressure and it's probably a bit different for each of us. And the only way to find it is to keep experimenting.
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Re: Aperture shape

Post by harrisonreed »

GabrielRice wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2023 8:10 am
Wilktone wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2023 7:58 am

Interesting. When your mouth is completely at rest (not playing) do you have your lips slightly open? If not, what is different from just before you commence blowing? Is it any different for you if you use a nose inhalation?
Before I make sound, yes, the lips are slightly open in the center. I breathe from that set through either or both my nose and corners (though I don't pull my corners back the way Doug does - I find that does not work well for me). When the sound finishes, my lips are closed. They open again slightly in the center when I take a breath.

Keep in mind, I am primarily a bass trombone player, and when I play tenor I use the same rim I play on bass. There's a lot of room in there...
FWIW, I am using a 2G-ish rim on everything (my rim is like a very round DE N105.5 except small bore tenor, for which I use a real DE N106). Not quite a real bass size, but still a lot of room. I think I may have a similar thought process to Gabe on the "setup" for playing. Maybe it is different for smaller mouthpieces.
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Re: Aperture shape

Post by Doug Elliott »

There's a lot of gray area of micro-adjusting in the range of lips "touching" or "almost touching" or "slightly open" and it's also affected by mouthpiece pressure and how that may vary during the attack or playing. And everybody's lip structure is different. The important thing is the find the point where everything works and you get an open and efficient response and sound.
The center of the lips is where the greatest "aperture" happens, so if it helps to think "round" go for it.
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Re: Aperture shape

Post by GabrielRice »

Doug Elliott wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2023 12:18 pm There's a lot of gray area of micro-adjusting in the range of lips "touching" or "almost touching" or "slightly open" and it's also affected by mouthpiece pressure and how that may vary during the attack or playing. And everybody's lip structure is different. The important thing is the find the point where everything works and you get an open and efficient response and sound.
The center of the lips is where the greatest "aperture" happens, so if it helps to think "round" go for it.
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Re: Aperture shape

Post by Kbiggs »

Okay, this conversation is making sense (and I’m enjoying the lesson and the back-and-forth).

From Lloyd Leno’s and Doug’s high-speed films, we know that both lips vibrate. For players who place the mouthpiece high on the lips (roughly 2/3 top, 1/3 bottom) and those who play downstream, the upper lip buzzes predominantly. However, for those who play upstream and place the mouthpiece low on the lips (roughly 1/3 top, 2/3 bottom), the lower lip buzzes predominantly.

(So it’s kind of like a bassoon reed except that one lip tends to dominate the vibration, and it’s kind of like a clarinet reed precisely because one lip dominates the vibration. Whatever. I thinking that the comparison of brass embouchures to reed instrument embouchures is not helpful in terms of aperture.)

Additionally, it’s also possible that the observer effect and the observer-expectancy effect are in play. This seems to be the point where people differ in discussions of aperture. For example, Gabe thinks of an open aperture, while he believes/is certain that his lips start in a closed position. Harrison, on the hand, thinks the aperture is a hole, as demonstrated by removing the mouthpiece from the horn while playing.

Perhaps it’s like Doug and Gabe said: whatever works for you.

Personally, I used to think (and was taught) that there is an aperture, and it should be open at the instant you start playing. However, I believe it was Doug who told me years ago (either in a lesson or perhaps one of the threads here on TC or the old TF) that the lips start closed, i.e., there is no true aperture or hole at the instant a note starts. I tried this against my normal lip embouchure, and I noticed I have many fewer airballs. That is, I either (a) adjusted my lip posture so that the lips are closed to prepare for a note or at the instant a note starts; or (b) I started thinking that way, which helped to significantly decrease airballs.
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Re: Aperture shape

Post by Kbiggs »

BGuttman wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2023 9:14 am Sam Burtis used to talk about a saloon door in a Western movie as an analogy of lip position. If you adjust the saloon doors so that they are too tight, the actor can't barge through them to make an entrance. Adjust them too loose and they don't swing closed enough. I think that we are all dancing around this idea: lips too tight is no good; lips too loose is no good. There is a proper amount of pressure and it's probably a bit different for each of us. And the only way to find it is to keep experimenting.
I remember that Philip Farkas used the saloon door analogy in his book The Art of Brass Playing. It was published in the ‘50’s (I think).

Farkas also included pictures with examples of what a “good” embouchure looks like with some of the common elements; he called it “The Brass Player’s Face.” He included pictures of some common embouchure mistakes like the “smile-and-press” embouchure, and the “duck-face” embouchure.

Farkas also took a pictures of brass player’s faces with their mouthpieces in place. The players were people from Chicago SO, and I think Cleveland too. He later published a book of pictures, mostly horn players from the major American orchestras.
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