TIS small bore straight horns

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bigbandbone
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TIS small bore straight horns

Post by bigbandbone »

I watched the old black and white Benny Goodman movie titled Sweet And Low Down this morning. One of the main characters was playing on a TIS small bore straight horn. Any ideas what it was? Probably a Conn? What model? Do guys look for them now like they look for TIS Conn bass bones?
walldaja
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Re: TIS small bore straight horns

Post by walldaja »

Olds had a lot of old TIS horns. Check out

http://itsabear.com/horns/Hammered_Stan ... ndard.html
Dave

2014 Shires Q30GR with 2CL
1982 King 607F with 13CL
Yamaha 421G Bass with Christian Lindberg 2CL / Bach 1 1/2G
Bach Soloist with 13CL
1967 Olds Ambassador with 10CL
1957 Besson 10-10
Jean Baptiste EUPCOMS with Stork 4
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BGuttman
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Re: TIS small bore straight horns

Post by BGuttman »

I have a couple of TIS trombones. I have a Conn, an Olds, and a Holton. The Holton Paul Whiteman is quite small. The original Olds was TIS. And the Conn Ballroom 38H, 40H, and 42H were all TIS. The Ballrooms had counterweights; absolutely necessary for a horn like this. The Olds did not except for a few that had a bear-shaped counterweight (and mine has an aftermarket one). The Holton is light enough that you don't really need it.

I play my 40H a bit and my Olds a bit. Don't play the Whiteman because it is rather shrill.

I also have a TIS King large bore that I don't play because it is unbalanced and one inner was welded together after a break and it has horrid slide action.

I should point out that if the actor is miming playing and not actually part of a band it's possible that the instrument was a prop.

Some folks look for TIS tenors, but the vast majority of us seem to want conventional tuning in bell instruments.
Bruce Guttman
Merrimack Valley Philharmonic Orchestra
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walldaja
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Re: TIS small bore straight horns

Post by walldaja »

My first experience with a trombone was an Olds TIS. I seem to remember that the TIS was a good way to introduce grime onto your slide and wasn't able to be quickly tuned. Of course, I've slept decades since then. Balance is also certainly an issue when you don't have a counterweight.
Dave

2014 Shires Q30GR with 2CL
1982 King 607F with 13CL
Yamaha 421G Bass with Christian Lindberg 2CL / Bach 1 1/2G
Bach Soloist with 13CL
1967 Olds Ambassador with 10CL
1957 Besson 10-10
Jean Baptiste EUPCOMS with Stork 4
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JohnL
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Re: TIS small bore straight horns

Post by JohnL »

bigbandbone wrote: Fri Jul 05, 2019 6:11 am I watched the old black and white Benny Goodman movie titled Sweet And Low Down this morning. One of the main characters was playing on a TIS small bore straight horn. Any ideas what it was? Probably a Conn? What model? Do guys look for them now like they look for TIS Conn bass bones?
Is this what you're looking at?


That's an Olds; the TIS mechanism is distinctive. An Olds pops up in The Fabulous Dorseys, too, being played by "young Tommy" (the brothers played their adult selves, but their younger selves were played by actors).

Given Olds' proximity to Hollywood and the movie studios, I wonder if Reg Olds worked some sort of product placement deal?
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Burgerbob
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Re: TIS small bore straight horns

Post by Burgerbob »

I had a Conn 18H for a little bit. It played well enough, but sounded very different than what we expect from a small tenor today. It was also an ergonomic nightmare without a counterweight. Unplayable for more than a few minutes.
Aidan Ritchie, LA area player and teacher
imsevimse
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Re: TIS small bore straight horns

Post by imsevimse »

Burgerbob wrote: Fri Jul 05, 2019 10:19 am I had a Conn 18H for a little bit. It played well enough, but sounded very different than what we expect from a small tenor today. It was also an ergonomic nightmare without a counterweight. Unplayable for more than a few minutes.
I have a 18H too and I agree it plays well. It is different than what to expect, also quite different from the other TIS I've played. I have a 38h and a 40H too and a few TIS Olds horns that sound real old. A friend of mine describes it as muffled. I think that's a good description. To me the 18H plays and sounds more modern and not at all THAT muffled, unfortunately not modern enough to fit any of the big bands I play in. It is a horn I would like to play in public but it has no place. I like to play it at home. My 18h is not that difficult to hold. It could be the TIS is modernized. It has not the centered screw that the 38h and 40H has. The screw is located on one side, same as a Kanstul 1662 bass. The weight of the slide is then less which might be what makes it not just easier to hold but the slide is faster and it's also a better sounding horn.

/Tom
Last edited by imsevimse on Fri Jul 05, 2019 2:01 pm, edited 10 times in total.
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Burgerbob
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Re: TIS small bore straight horns

Post by Burgerbob »

Yes, I found it be quite "legit." I definitely wouldn't use it in a big band.
Aidan Ritchie, LA area player and teacher
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JohnL
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Re: TIS small bore straight horns

Post by JohnL »

bigbandbone wrote: Fri Jul 05, 2019 6:11 amDo guys look for them now like they look for TIS Conn bass bones?
Short answer? No. The demand for small-bore TIS tenors (of any make) isn't strong. Not only do they tend to have issues with being nose-heavy, the extra weight on the outer slide doesn't help with highly technical playing, nor is it good for slide vibrato (if you're into that sort of thing). Neither of those is as much of a consideration on a bass trombone.
Last edited by JohnL on Mon Jul 08, 2019 9:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
imsevimse
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Re: TIS small bore straight horns

Post by imsevimse »

imsevimse wrote: Fri Jul 05, 2019 1:23 pm
Burgerbob wrote: Fri Jul 05, 2019 10:19 am I had a Conn 18H for a little bit. It played well enough, but sounded very different than what we expect from a small tenor today. It was also an ergonomic nightmare without a counterweight. Unplayable for more than a few minutes.
I have a 18H too and I agree it plays well. It is different than what to expect, also quite different from the other TIS I've played. I have a 38h and a 40H too and a few TIS Olds horns that sound real old. A friend of mine describes it as muffled. I think that's a good description. To me the 18H plays and sounds more modern and not at all THAT muffled, unfortunately not modern enough to fit any of the big bands I play in. It is a horn I would like to play in public but it has no place. I like to play it at home. My 18h is not that difficult to hold. It could be the TIS is modernized. It has not the centered screw that the 38h and 40H has. The screw is located on one side, same as a Kanstul 1662 bass. The weight of the slide is then less which might be what makes it not just easier to hold but the slide is faster and it's also a better sounding horn.

/Tom
I just found a couple of other 18h on ebay and from pictures it has the exact placement of the screw that holds the tuning slide on the slide section as my horn and less material. I wasn't sure but it is apparently the original design. This model has therefore a lighter slide than for example the 38h, 40H and 42h. The 18H is also called the "Tait" model. The 38h is .485. Both the 40h and 18h are .500.

I was on hunt for a 42h for a while but they are rare on ebay. I found one once but it was in poor condition. The other small bore Conns turn up now and then.

I'm no longer interested in a 42h.

/Tom
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Oslide
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Re: TIS small bore straight horns

Post by Oslide »

imsevimse wrote: Mon Jul 08, 2019 5:32 am
---snippet---
The 18H is also called the "Tait" model.
According to the "Conn Loyalist" there was a "18H Tait" , built from 1919 - 1924, and a "18H Frisco Artist", built from 1924 - 1931.
Ceterum censeo to fetch All of TTF
Jimkinkella
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Re: TIS small bore straight horns

Post by Jimkinkella »

I have a couple of TIS horns.
Love them all.
Old and modern basses, old and modern tenors.
Modern tenors with a TIS are very rare, but can be done, and tend to play fantastic.
Most modern big band sections will run a bit brighter than expected for a TIS horn, but might work.
timbone
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Re: TIS small bore straight horns

Post by timbone »

I have six TIS horns, five Conn and one Williams and Wallace. They are all remarkable trombones even by today's standards, and all players. I decided long ago that If I liked the way a horn played and I love TIS, I will learn how to hold it. I bet my slides are as fast as anyone's, and I love the inertia of weight that sets the slide in motion- you just have to point it in the right direction. All these horns are friction fit as well. Fit and finish were much more important at critical junctions like bell to slide. I have never had a horn fall apart on a gig, and have played them professionally for years. The compression is off the charts btw. OK, what then? 18H, 35H, 62H, 70H 82H, and the WW, which is .508-.510 bore. None of the straight horns have any bracing in the bell, other than the hand brace.

Lastly, in the case of slide weight - that is a good thing- IF the slide works well. That is the engine of sound my friends. More weight- more core. And of course to satisfy your argument, more weight to a point. Think of the bell being a speaker and you've got it!
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