Thayer french horn

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8parktoollover
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Thayer french horn

Post by 8parktoollover » Mon Jul 08, 2019 1:46 pm

I heard that the thayer valve was originally designed for french horn. Does anyone know if any existing examples?
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BGuttman
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Re: Thayer french horn

Post by BGuttman » Mon Jul 08, 2019 1:51 pm

Never seen one. Given the size of a Thayer it would be a real challenge to fit one (actually 3 or 4) into a French Horn wrap.
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Re: Thayer french horn

Post by 8parktoollover » Mon Jul 08, 2019 1:56 pm

Well that's probably why ut didn't work and anyway they don't really need them.
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paulyg
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Re: Thayer french horn

Post by paulyg » Mon Jul 08, 2019 1:59 pm

It would work reasonably well, I think. You would need to design a new wrap, and instead of two passages, there would be four for each valve- creating a triple horn would be difficult.

Designing a horn around axial-flow valves would be complicated by the need for disassembly of the valves for routine maintenance. Also, routing linkages for a thayer-type valve with four ports would be difficult. Perhaps they were only intended as change valves, with the main valve block remaining as rotaries?
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Re: Thayer french horn

Post by 8parktoollover » Mon Jul 08, 2019 2:04 pm

I actualy learnt this from a aiden ritchie video. maybe he can elaborate.
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Re: Thayer french horn

Post by Burgerbob » Mon Jul 08, 2019 2:13 pm

I read it on a dissertation about the history of the Thayer. Not sure exactly that was.
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Re: Thayer french horn

Post by BGuttman » Mon Jul 08, 2019 2:14 pm

I think that may be from the patent application.

Note that at one time the change valve on the French Horn was a piston, so exotic valves have been used for that at other times as well.
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Re: Thayer french horn

Post by Finetales » Mon Jul 08, 2019 2:57 pm

I could definitely see a Thayer or Hagmann change valve working. Some change valves (Alexanders for example) are already gigantic so it doesn't seem too far-fetched. I'd be very interested in trying a horn set up like that, as uniformity between the F and Bb sides is something all horn players strive for.

As for the main 3 valves however, I don't think you can do better than Viennese pumpenvalves.
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Re: Thayer french horn

Post by Slidemo » Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:26 pm

I heard a legend that a Thayer valve Euphonium was made once and it sounded and played like crap!

For an instrument like Horn or Eupho there are just much better choices than big open Trombone valves, they really just don't need that feature especially as they are conical.

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Re: Thayer french horn

Post by hornbuilder » Mon Jul 08, 2019 4:21 pm

I was privileged to be a guest of Ed and Barb Thayer back in 1999 after I had attended Red Wing. Iver the week that I stayed with them Ed and I chatted about a lot of things, including the idea of Thayer valves in French Horns.

Mr Thayer was a horn player himself, and had an idea for a valve that would "open up" a horn. He had intended for the player to have their right hand outside the bell to adjust a tuning slide for intonation correction. I told it wouldn't fly because the hand in the bell was an integral part of the "horn sound". At the time I visited, he was not legally allowed to make his own invention, due issues with his previous business partner. He still planned on getting back into the game and creating a french horn, but that never came to be.

The Thayer Eupho was also shown to me. It wasn't playable, but looked intriguing.

I also saw all of the prototypes, including "Betsy", the very first Proof of Concept made from a coffee can. I was also treated to some EXCELLENT fresh crab, that Mr Thayer prepared using methods similar to those of the American Indians native to the area.

M
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Re: Thayer french horn

Post by bbocaner » Mon Jul 08, 2019 7:54 pm

There was a period during the 1990s that the TVI ads in the ITA Journal had a little blurb at the bottom that said "coming soon - a 4-valve euphonium".

Those aluminum core valves needed so much maintenance that I'm sure the whole instrument would have needed to come apart, I can't imagine what a mess that would have been. And you wouldn't have been able to make it compensating - unless only the 4th valve was a thayer? Hornbuilder -- just for curiosity's sake I'd love to hear more about how it was designed.

It really is a shame about how he was treated by those former business partners. I met him and bought a valve from him about that time and he was extremely kind.
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Re: Thayer french horn

Post by 8parktoollover » Mon Jul 08, 2019 11:06 pm

I read an article that someone wrote about how he was completely redesigning the trumpet.I just skimmed tge article because it was really long and went into some very technical deatails but it did menntion a use of some sort of variation of the thayer.
Last edited by 8parktoollover on Tue Jul 09, 2019 12:44 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Thayer french horn

Post by Posaunus » Mon Jul 08, 2019 11:20 pm

8parktoollover wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 11:06 pm
I read an article that someone wrote about how he was completely redesigning tge trumpet.I just skimmed tge article because it was reqlly long and went into some very technical deatails but it did menntion a use of sone sort of variation in the thayer.
Good luck with that! :lol:
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Re: Thayer french horn

Post by 8parktoollover » Tue Jul 09, 2019 12:48 am

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Re: Thayer french horn

Post by LIBrassCo » Tue Jul 09, 2019 2:21 am

Good read. Im taking a similar aproach to valve design on double valved trombones, where i think considerable improvements can be made by use of modern machining capabilities.
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Re: Thayer french horn

Post by tbonesullivan » Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:02 am

Is there a Thayer Valve museum somewhere? I'd love to see pictures at least of all these interesting developments that led to the legendary valve.
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Re: Thayer french horn

Post by JohnL » Tue Jul 09, 2019 2:10 pm

Finetales wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 2:57 pm
I could definitely see a Thayer or Hagmann change valve working. Some change valves (Alexanders for example) are already gigantic so it doesn't seem too far-fetched.
The Alex change valve is large, but that's to accommodate six ports in a single plane valve.

As for new approaches to valve fabrication, I think Engelbert Schmid uses a monoblock valve cluster, though he uses a fairly traditional wrap.
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Re: Thayer french horn

Post by Finetales » Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:32 pm

JohnL wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 2:10 pm
Finetales wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 2:57 pm
I could definitely see a Thayer or Hagmann change valve working. Some change valves (Alexanders for example) are already gigantic so it doesn't seem too far-fetched.
The Alex change valve is large, but that's to accommodate six ports in a single plane valve.
Yep, I meant moreso that there's definitely space for a valve as large as a Thayer or Hagmann in a horn as its change valve.
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Re: Thayer french horn

Post by 8parktoollover » Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:10 pm

Finetales wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:32 pm
JohnL wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 2:10 pm

The Alex change valve is large, but that's to accommodate six ports in a single plane valve.
Yep, I meant moreso that there's definitely space for a valve as large as a Thayer or Hagmann in a horn as its change valve.

True but most horns have change valves that are the same size or smaller than the main valves
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Re: Thayer french horn

Post by Posaunus » Wed Jul 10, 2019 12:50 am

As far as I can tell, this trumpet concept incorporates valves which in no way resemble axial-flow Thayer valves. Any discussion of this sort of thing should probably be moves to a new thread.
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Re: Thayer french horn

Post by 8parktoollover » Wed Jul 10, 2019 1:01 am

At bottomm there is a mention if thayer valves.
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Re: Thayer french horn

Post by MoominDave » Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:29 am

bbocaner wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 7:54 pm
And you wouldn't have been able to make it compensating - unless only the 4th valve was a thayer?
I don't see why not, in principle - make it a bigger cone and then you can have two tubes run into the narrow end. Would make for pretty large valves though, and the number of tight tubing loops might negate the whole point of Thayerising.
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Re: Thayer french horn

Post by bbocaner » Wed Jul 10, 2019 6:35 pm

I don't see how that would work, the whole idea of the valve is that the whole valve rotates around the axis of the input tubing - aka axial. That doesn't work with more than one tube coming in the center of the cone. I suppose you might be able to work out how to have a second valve off on the side of the cone, but it'd be some pretty intricate passages through the core to make that work and you lose one of the main advantages of thayer valves, which is that the input port is always engaged to the input tubing. I think it might work better to gang two valves together through a single linkage. But then I think there are also better ways to do it (like MAW pistons)
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Re: Thayer french horn

Post by elmsandr » Wed Jul 10, 2019 7:08 pm

Folks, there’s a picture in the dang patent... the second path for compensation enters parallel to the axis of rotation, but not at the center like the first path.

https://patents.google.com/patent/US4469002A/en

Image

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Re: Thayer french horn

Post by bbocaner » Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:01 pm

Oh, interesting. Thanks for that. Might be difficult to get the 2nd valve compensating loop short enough.
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Re: Thayer french horn

Post by LIBrassCo » Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:36 am

Thats really interesting. So now i have to ask, has anyone used a thayer as pictured?
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