Good Pro Alto

[ThePousane]

A while ago I bought a cheap Chinese alto. After learning the positions and how to play it, I sold it to a friend who also wanted to learn alto. Currently, I need to upgrade as I will be playing it in trombone choir, orchestra, and recitals. I have looked at many with and without a valve. My list includes the Bach 39, Conn 36H, Markus Leuchter, Jurgen Voigt, Josef Gopp J1, Yamaha 871, Kuhnl & Hoyer Slokar 175 & 176, and S.E. Shires Custom (and I’m open to more suggestions of course). I am looking to see the following:

- if anyone has played/owns one
- how it responds
- if a valve is necessary (for the listed uses above)
- if there is a usable 7th position

Before I left ITF, I went to try most of the altos and have decided to remove the following from the list:

- Bach 39/Conn 36H (The response and feel could not match the others in my opinion and I dislike the Conn rotor feel)
- Kuhnl and Hoyer (Well made, just not my thing)
- Joseph Gopp (Not at ITF, but it has some serious competition that I don’t think would come close to)

With that being said, this is my final list and will hopefully pick up one of the following horns:

- Markus Leuchter (Haven’t played it but heard plenty of great things about it, it has a good sound, and isn’t too “German” and can blend with any instrument)
- S.E. Shires (I fortunately got to play both their tuning in bell and tuning in slide altos in both gold and yellow brass bells and I thought the tuning in bell yellow brass bell alto was the best for me. All I have to do is compare it to the others)
- Yamaha (Classic alto with a classic design. My student model trombone is Yamaha and enjoyed how it played. Looking forward to compare it side to side with the others)
- Jurgen Voigt (This may seem like a weird addition to the “Final Four” but the sound that came from this German horn was fantastic. It has a thumb rest like some Shires Straight tenors do. It felt weird at first and will take some time to get used to, but it is a well made horn that I would be happy to consider as my first pro alto)
- M&W (Never tried it, but heard many good things about these horns)
- Courtois? (I played a used one at a shop 2 years ago and it was fine, probably won’t consider it unless someone says otherwise)

Any suggestions are welcomed and my budget is $3500, but something closer to $3000 would be ideal

[SwissTbone]

I am not the seller nor do I know him. But this may interest you

[TromboneSam]

I have a Yamaha 671, which is the predecessor to the current production 871. I REALLY like the sound I get from it. It has 7 usable positions. Like most Yamaha horns I’ve played it’s just incredibly consistent in response across the range of the instrument, and didn’t take long to get used to. The above link to the one on Facebook is the exact model I have, and it looks to be in awesome condition, especially considering they went out of production almost 20 years ago.

I’ve heard really good things about the Shires, but their tuning-in-bell model must be new! In talking with Mike Lake last month about it he said the only reason he hadn’t switched years ago to Shires is because they only offered TIS. He now plays on a custom SS Adams alto, so I guess it’s neither here nor there!

I hope I’ve been at least a little bit of help. I’m not sure if it’ll work but I’ll try to attach an excerpt from Mike’s Alto Trombone Savvy book that he sent me. It’s reviews of multiple altos from a group of professional trombonists.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1vS-5fg ... p=drivesdk

[Matt K]

I didn't know Shires was doing tuning in bell; they were TIS exclusively for a long time.

I will say that the Bb attachment is really nice. Necessary? Probably not. However, in addition to giving you access to some notes outside of the range of the straight Eb horn, it also allows for a much easier E natural, which on some altos is basically off the slide as well as the ability to trill notes in a more comfortable register. Concerning trills, the Bb attachment isn't necessarily meant to be activated and deactivated rapidly as if it were a trill valve, but rather to pull things down a 4th so you can do a lip trill. E.g. a F-G in the bottom of treble clef is a lot easier to work for me on the Bb side than the Eb side.

That of course puts the Shires out of your budget; those are nearly $5k with the rotor. I had a Conn 36H for awhile that I really liked but it was after I had some work done to it. The biggest change was getting a different leadpipe. It's an odd bore so you'll have to have to get something that isn't that size and adjust it which is a bit of a leap of faith to some degree. I had a T85 "2" from Shires flared out at the bottom to fit the 491 bore. After that, it played great. Especially with the Elliott Alto shank. I also had the valve section deburred and some of the joints reassembled. Was a really great alto after that but I did so little alto playing that I ended up more-or-less selling it to fund a bass which I was doing much more work on at the time.

But I'd also be really tempted to forego the rotor if I had the bread for a Shires alto. They do play really nicely.

[hornbuilder]

Did you try M&W at ITF??

[ThePousane]

Did you try M&W at ITF??

Unfortunately not. However I recently looked around this forum and found that M&W’s Trombones were well made and played well. I then checked their website and found out that it is within the budget. As a result, I will add it to the other 4 altos I am considering. Unfortunately, I haven’t heard much about M&W altos. Has anyone had any experience with these horns?

[Matt K]

You just heard from one of the founders, although he obviously has a bias!

I've only played them a few times at conventions but never the altos. I'm glad to hear they're carrying them. I've yet to play an M&W horn that was anything other than superb.

[heinzgries]

Helmut Voigt alto. Comes in 3 size. Handcrafted. Best alto in my mind. Around 2700 $
https://helmut-voigt.com/alto-trombones/

[harrisonreed]

I do not believe Shires makes bell tuning altos. Did you ask about what was up with the model you tried at ITF?

FWIW, before you dismiss the Conn, or any other brand, it's worth trying them with the slide pushed in enough so that the hand slide gives you a proper Db at the bell, even if that causes you to play a little long on the slide. Otherwise you might be trying to lip a false distance between the closed hand slide and the bell true, ruining the response.

[ThePousane]

[/img]

Helmut Voigt alto. Comes in 3 size. Handcrafted. Best alto in my mind. Around 2700 $
https://helmut-voigt.com/alto-trombones/

This seems like a good deal. However, does this instrument blend well with a section of American made horns?

I do not believe Shires makes bell tuning altos. Did you ask about what was up with the model you tried at ITF?

FWIW, before you dismiss the Conn, or any other brand, it's worth trying them with the slide pushed in enough so that the hand slide gives you a proper Db at the bell, even if that causes you to play a little long on the slide. Otherwise you might be trying to lip a false distance between the closed hand slide and the bell true, ruining the response.

Shires has recently released the bell tuning altos that would debut at ITF, found here:



And regarding dismissing altos, I personally liked the response of the Shires better than the Conn or Bach

[castrubone]

FWIW every single trombone player that advanced out of the first round of the Tchaikovsky competition (except for one) was playing a Conn 34H or 36H alto. If you don't like the feel of the trill valve you should check out the 34H. It often gets overlooked in favor of the 36H, but it'd be well under your budget. It's easier to play and a lighter sound IMO. Having said that, the Jurgen Voigt J-711 is one of my favorites. Can't go wrong with it.

[ThePousane]

FWIW every single trombone player that advanced out of the first round of the Tchaikovsky competition (except for one) was playing a Conn 34H or 36H alto. If you don't like the trill valve you should check out the 34H. The Jurgen Voigt is really really nice, but you'll save a lot of money if you get a 34H and still get a fantastic horn.

Thanks for the input! You say the Jurgen Voigt is nice, do you have experience with it? I just checked the price of a Conn 34H and it is about the same (if not a little less) than the price of a Jurgen Voigt

[castrubone]

I have a J-711 and love it, but if I did it again I'd probably get a 34H to save some money. It's just as good and cheaper. For the amount the alto gets used it's not worth investing a tremendous amount of money for me. Hickey's has the 34H for $2109...the JV is usually around $2700 online.

[ThePousane]

I have a J-711 and love it, but if I did it again I'd probably get a 34H to save some money. It's just as good and cheaper. For the amount the alto gets used it's not worth investing a tremendous amount of money for me. Hickey's has the 34H for $2109...the JV is usually around $2700 online.

Ok, I’m considering the J-710, which is slightly less expensive. I don’t really know how much shipping is, but w/o it $1938.12, making it the least expensive new alto I’m considering (w/o shipping of course)

[castrubone]

I'm not familiar with the 710, but that's very cheap. JV makes good horns.

[ThePousane]

I'm not familiar with the 710, but that's very cheap. JV makes good horns.

About the JV, does it blend well with American instruments and have a true 7th position? Can you also describe the playability of the horn?

[CalgaryTbone]

Plus one for the 34H - I owned one for a while, and liked it very much. When I bought it, I was at Dillons and my search came down to it and a 36H. Everyone there that I asked to listen chose the 34H. The 36H was also a very good horn, with a bit more depth in the low range, but the 34H "sang" in the mid and upper range, and both horns were very "user friendly". Nice pitch and comfortable blow.

Also, just curious - I went to the Voigt site. What's the bore size for the largest alto in their series? That info is there for the other 2, but not that one.

Jim Scott

[brassmedic]

I play a Jurgen Voigt. I think it's the 711. It's a very small bore. It's the best alto I've ever played. Every note feels perfectly centered. It's almost hard to miss notes on it. And the sound is beautiful. Maybe not for everyone, though. It's a real alto sound; definitely doesn't sound like a sawed-off tenor. And it doesn't have the American style bell-slide relationship, so if you find positions with your eyes you will be out of luck. It does have a 7th position. You're all the way out on the stockings, but it's there. I never tried any of their larger bore offerings.

[tbonesullivan]

At your price point, I would say if you can get some altos in your hands, that would definitely be best. There are a lot of horns out there, as almost all of the altos available are under $3500. I have heard good things about Courtois altos, and the Kuhnl & Hoyer 175 Slokar Eb Alto, if you can find one. I'm sure the regular 122 from K&H is great too.

That being said, in terms of consistency, IMHO Yamaha is the king. Of you need to buy one sight unseen, I would look for one of their altos, new or used.

I went with a Bach 39 used, but it was one with an impeccable pedigree.

[Bach5G]

There are a lot of used, barely played, altos out there.

[ThePousane]

There are a lot of used, barely played, altos out there.

That’s very true, I just haven’t found many of them. What are some sites that have a good number of quality used altos?

[bbocaner]

I like my TIS shires a lot but someone I met who's a shires artist tells me that the new bell-tuning model is really special. I bought shires because all of my other trombones are shires and I thought it'd be nice to have a matching set, but there was a red-belled rath I tried at dillon music that still haunts my dreams...

[tbonesullivan]

That’s very true, I just haven’t found many of them. What are some sites that have a good number of quality used altos?

You can check the classifieds here. Dillon Music has a nice Courtois with a Trill Valve up, Baltimore brass often gets some, the brass exchange has a Yamaha 872 alto with trill valve, the brass ark, Horn Guys, etc.

A lot of them don't last long, as everyone wants to have a nice alto, even if they end up never using it, so then they pop back up after a few years.

[Bach5G]

Phil Parker has a Yam 671 up.

Have you tried a WTB/ISO ad?

[heinzgries]

the Helmut Voigt size 3 bore is 12,9/13,9 mm.

[Mhoutris]

I went on an alto hunt last year to upgrade from my Chinese horn as well. After several months and many horns, I narrowed it down to a Yamaha 671, Courtois, and a Bach 39.

I much prefer the 671 to the 871 if you’re going the Yamaha route. (Insert generic "They don’t make ‘em like they used to" comment).

The Courtois was the most comfortable to hold, but the sound wasn’t what I had in mind compared to the other 2 "finalists."

The 39 was what I ultimately picked. It’s an older one and it’s exactly the sound I was looking for. The short bell takes some getting used to but it’s totally worth it.

That being said everyone has a different physiology and personal sound concepts. Get whatever feels good, sounds good, and passes a whole bunch of blind comparison tests with your peers. Also don’t underestimate the Facebook marketplace for the occasional great deal.