Large bore straight tenor

[MStarke]

Hi all,

another question - sorry if I missed it in recent discussions.

Although I fully believe in the added flexibility and convenience that a valve offers on a large tenor, I have become a real fan of straight horns.
For me they are not only physically lighter, but they also kind of reduce trombone playing to the core.
And maybe - but I do not want to trigger this discussion here - they do respond and sound a bit different.
I don't even dare to say better, but different.

However here comes the core question:
When thinking of a straight large bore (American style) tenor what would be your favorite?

One obvious response would be the Conn 8H - I have a Blessing copy that I really like.
Then there are King and Bach alternatives, and obviously more.

What's your experience, your preferences or recommendations?

[imsevimse]

I have many favourite-horns but I prefer them smaller. My most played larger horn is a 525 bore Bach 36BO. In the past I have had a Abilene Conn 8H but did not use it much. I sold it because had a 88H that I had more use for. My other straight .547 horns are a Schilke ST20 and a Benge 190C (both convertable) and a Bach 42. If I only had straight .547 horns to choose from the choice would be my Bach 42. It is a really good straight horn.

I agree a horn without a valve plays different, not better just different.

/Tom

[hyperbolica]

I love a good 8h. Second favorite would be a Holton 156, and then Olds Opera.

[whitbey]

My horns are Edwards, so the straight pipe flip from the valve is easy. The horn I play in orchestra and concert band is almost always straight. My quintet, practice horn is with the valve.

The straight horn plays a little nicer for me in orchestra and concert band. Faster and easier attacks.

[walldaja]

I resisted getting a trigger horns for years because I played left-handed. Took the plunge and really love the flexibility the trigger offers. I prefer a smaller horn for a straight horn. But you can't beat them if you just want to use your left hand.

[ArbanRubank]

I am pretty sure other horns would fit what I am about to describe, but for me - I love the Yamaha 620/610 combo. I simply swap the 610 bell out for the 620 bell, pop in a larger mouthpiece and I can instantly go from high tenor on my straight 610 to - what I call - baby bass on my trigger 620 bell. Since I thoroughly clean my slide(s) after each use, I only have one slide to clean. I let the mouthpiece shape my sound and the trigger on the 620 to reach the lower extended notes. Like the OP, I mainly enjoy playing a straight large-bore horn.

And to be perfectly clear, both the 610 and the 620 are large-bore horns; the 610 being the straight one.

[MStarke]

Hi all, thanks for your inputs.

I was somehow hoping someone would come with the holy grail of straight large bore tenors.
Something comparable to what a Greenhoe 88h is to some people, but as a straight horn.

Has anyone played a straight Kanstul large bore?

[tbonesullivan]

What kind of playing are you going to be doing?

The Bach straight 42 is a FINE horn. So is the King 4B, and the Conn 8H. You can find many of these used and new.

A nice Elkhart 8H might qualify as a "holy grail", or a mount vernon 42, especially if it has rose brass slide tubes, which was an option back then.

Also all of the modular trombones can be set up in a straight configuration, so there really are quite a number of options out there.

[ExZacLee]

I have a Shires .547 with a gold brass bell and lw gold brass slide. A few years ago I wanted to sell it but the offers on it were too low so I kept it. I use it on occasion - it's a great horn and god it records well. I don't use it on Salsa gigs, but I've used on a bunch of salsa/timba in the studio. I also use it with my quintet for certain things - primarily when I'm going for a Slide Hampton/Curtis Fuller kind of sound. It's an amazing horn - feels like a smoother, more refined 88H.

[imsevimse]

Hi all, thanks for your inputs.

I was somehow hoping someone would come with the holy grail of straight large bore tenors.
Something comparable to what a Greenhoe 88h is to some people, but as a straight horn.

Has anyone played a straight Kanstul large bore?

I have the feeling most symphonic players nowdays choose a horn with a valve. The same goes for college students who study at the academy of music. Small bore trombones is the opposite then the professionals don't appreciate the valve as much, at least this is the case over here. I think .525 horns is as big they get before most want a trigger on them.

The holy grail for a straight .547?

I have never thought of that really, it's a good question. I don't think there is one common opinion about straight large bore trombones. It isn't one common opinion about f-attachment horns either but if you look at the professional players in the symphony orchestra they often are seen with f-attachment trombones. I'd guess the Bach 42 and the Conn 8H would be the ones most straight horn .547-players have used since the 50ies, but it is a guess.

There are many convertable horns today that let you choose the setup that fits your needs, then you are not limited. Then I guess besides a convertable Bach or Conn you could add Shires and Edward's or any of the other newer brands who let's you configure your horn. Individual configurations is what folk choose today if they can afford.

I go for old and used and then it is easier. I would advice a straight Bach 42 or a Conn 8H.

/Tom

[BGuttman]

If you want the rarest of the are, look for a Monette. I think only 5 were ever made. last I knew, one was with Larry Isaacson and one with Scott Hartman. Only available as straight horns.

[bimmerman]

I have been playing on a Yamaha 641 for the last couple weeks (selling for a friend, see classifieds post, shameless plug)-- it's an interesting horn. Large bore, straight horn, ~8.5" red brass bell with everything else being nickel silver. Narrow-ish slide (Conn width?), doesn't seem to have a bass sized crook....really fun horn. Plays very warm with pingy articulations and fast response. It makes my Edwards sound bland and sterile, but if you're not looking for a very lively rich sound, might not be the ticket.

I almost always prefer playing without the valve, but it is useful to have and does make stuff easier to play. Most of my horns are small bores, so that's probably why I prefer the larger bores without a valve when it's an option.

[MrHCinDE]

I have a soft spot for straight large bore tenors, especially for 1st trombone in symphony orchestra or brass band. Generally I prefer to play as much as possible on the straight horn, falling back to my trusty 88h only when the trigger is more or less essential.

I alternate between playing my Elkhart 8h (N-series) or Schagerl Aurora.

The 8h is so easy blowing and it feels like you get the warmth of sound without even thinking about it. It’s a bit lighter in the lower range compared to my Gen2 88h but sings in the middle to upper. It’s possible to really crack out parts where appropriate as well. Call me crazy but I always feel it needs a long warm up, perhaps just ‘cause I love playing it so much!

The Aurora is a different thing altogether, unlike anything else I’ve played. It’s a large bore TIS with gold plated bell, was a bit of an impulse purchase. It’s very even across all registers and super responsive, you just have to think the note and it comes out. It needs more effort to keep up with the richness of the 8h but blends really well, especially with French horns and trumpets. Not sure if it counts as American style but different to a traditional ‘German’ instrument also.

[SwissTbone]

I have a soft spot for straight large bore tenors, especially for 1st trombone in symphony orchestra or brass band. Generally I prefer to play as much as possible on the straight horn, falling back to my trusty 88h only when the trigger is more or less essential.

I alternate between playing my Elkhart 8h (N-series) or Schagerl Aurora.

The 8h is so easy blowing and it feels like you get the warmth of sound without even thinking about it. It’s a bit lighter in the lower range compared to my Gen2 88h but sings in the middle to upper. It’s possible to really crack out parts where appropriate as well. Call me crazy but I always feel it needs a long warm up, perhaps just ‘cause I love playing it so much!

The Aurora is a different thing altogether, unlike anything else I’ve played. It’s a large bore TIS with gold plated bell, was a bit of an impulse purchase. It’s very even across all registers and super responsive, you just have to think the note and it comes out. It needs more effort to keep up with the richness of the 8h but blends really well, especially with French horns and trumpets. Not sure if it counts as American style but different to a traditional ‘German’ instrument also.

Interesting you talk about brass band. The principal trombone of Grimethorpe used (or still plays) on a 8h. Never heard a more appropriate sound for brass banding.

[Jimkinkella]

I have both an 8H and a Selmer Largo, probably the neatest straight .547 I've played was David Gibson's nickle bell Rath.
Super smooth, and probably the most interesting sound I had heard from a Rath.
The Holton TR156s are really comfortable to play, as well.

[Burgerbob]

Put the straight gooseneck on my 47 just for kicks. Plays OK!

But, overall, it plays better with the valve. I would love a chance to find out what it's like in the real world at some point.

[down8ve]

I recall Joe Alessi playing a straight 42G when I was at Julliard. Glorious sound, I've always loved those horns. Don't blame you for adding variety to your talents.

One concert (THX for the endless supply of scorebox tix, Big Daddy) I remember them playing Bernstein's "On the Waterfront", I think. Anyways there was a section where he had to play Eb and such, so he took off the straight bell, put on a valved bell, played the passage, then immediately put the straight bell back on for the rest of the piece.
Obviously a man of distinction and taste.

-D. Scott Moore

[MStarke]

Thanks again for all replies.

Someone was asking what kind of playing I would typically be doing:
As I am a former pro bass trombonist now only playing for fun, I choose to mostly play orchestral, brass/trombone ensemble and some limited solo stuff.
I have a small collection of horns (currently two basses, three or four (?) tenors, one alto) that will certainly also include a tenor with valve again soon, so that should be covered when it is needed.

I will keep my eyes open, try some things and maybe come across a nice 8h at some point - or something else.

As I said I just somehow appreciate the very resonant and light feel of a straight tenor...

[CalgaryTbone]

I played an early 50's 8H for much of my career. When I was in school, it was still very common that at least the Principal player in an orchestra played on a straight .547 tenor. In the late 70's/early 80's Ed Herman in NYP - 8H, Jay Friedman in CSO - Holton (his model), Glenn Dodson in PO - Bach 42. Here in Canada, Gordon Sweeney in Toronto and Gordon Cherry in Vancouver were also playing 8H's for most of their careers.

The freedom of the "blow" on the straight horn is a beautiful thing, but gradually, especially with the advent of more open valves, trigger horns won the day as the standard. All of those players used their trigger horns on occasion, but only when needed. My 8H had a Brasslab detachable valve made for it by the previous owner. It was interesting to feel the difference in how the horn played with or without the valve. Like someone said in an earlier post, both were good but different. One reason that once I went to a thayer valve I started leaving it on the horn is that I found it distracting to adjust the way I played for that change. The horn played more open already with the valve than with a tight rotor. I think it's often just a matter of what you're used to as to which (valve/straight) horn you prefer.

The straight .547 tenor is coming back in one instance - there is a straight version of the Alessi Edwards in their catalog. I know that Joe has used it on at least one set of performances of the Mahler 3. Funny how things come back into style.

I had a student who had a straight Yamaha from his high school. He brought the horn to his first lesson, and said he thought there was something wrong with the horn since it was such a big bore but somehow they forgot the trigger. He had never seen a horn like that.

Jim Scott

[dukesboneman]

I`m a real fan of Straight Large Bore Tenors. I went thru Grad school as a performance Major with a straight Benge 190. I had to develop good false tones.
Now I have a Straight Bach Lt42G and a 42BO
and a Straight Mount Vernon Lt36 and a Mount Vernon 36B
The 36`s are interesting , The Lt36 plays like a "large" small horn
where as the 36B plays more like a "small" large horn.
I used to have an amazing 8H sorry I let that one go.

[tbonesullivan]

This really makes me want to pick up a straight 4B or something. But someone just spent quite a bit of money on a compensating Euphonium, so that will have to wait a year or so. I also need to decide If I want a straight medium large, or large bore.

I could always pick up a yamaha Ysl-620, and then mix and match it with my 640. I believe the tenons are identical.

[virtualhaggis]

When I got my first trombone back in ‘83 I really wsnted a Conn 8H, but they were a bit pricey. My teacher at school had an Elkhart model that had so much resonance I almost crapped myself when I first blew it (I had been on thr school Yamaha 354 until then and had never blown an orchestral large bore.

I bought another instrument recommended by the teacher - the newly released snd short-lived Yamaha YSL-841. This was almost (but not quite) as good as the Elkhart 8H. It has the unusual feature of a .551” bore. Very open blowing! And it has been my orchestral axe ever since. I love the simplicity of this truly ridiculous but wonderful instrument - nothing but a bit of extendable tubing. I can count on 1 hand when I wished I had had a trigger as a 1st ot 2nd trombone. For 3rd I did relent and use a single trigger bass. I have just developed a reasonably fast right hand. If only my wolf tones were passable then the F trigger would be totally unnecessary!

[sirisobhakya]

I have played Yamaha YSL-641 and 881, and also a Getzen which I can't remember the model number. I was playing 1st trombone back then, and it belongs to the school so I had almost nothing to complain. Playing it again recently I realized I don't like the balance at all, but please take it with a grain of salt since normally I play a very back-heavy bass trombone.

The YSL-641 is very light and responsive, partially because of the all-brass slide without nickel oversleeve. The 881 is heavier. However, comparing the 881 and 882 I don't quite feel the difference except the lighter weight.

[SwissTbone]

Those Yamahas are great and sound really easy!

I have a large bore straight Shires in my collection that I like to use for practice. Gives me a great workout for my arm. And I really like the blow on straight horns, seems more free.