Differences between different valves/triggers

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Jose999
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Differences between different valves/triggers

Post by Jose999 » Fri Aug 02, 2019 8:41 am

I would like you to explain me the differences, advantages and disadvantages of the different types of valves, (thayer, traditional, haggmann, dual bore ...) and what is your favorite type, thanks!
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Re: Differences between different valves/triggers

Post by Bonearzt » Fri Aug 02, 2019 8:52 am

They ALL work on the principle of a "consistent" bore through the valve, an idea first started by Mr. Thayer with his axial flow valve.

They ALL play and respond differently, with the axial "Thayer style probably being the most free blowing, and usually, the traditional "stock" rotary valve having the most resistance.

BUT!!! The valve section also has a lot to do with how free a valve blows!!! But not necessarily the wrap itself in spite of the misnomer "open wrap". The careful assembly of the tubing and placement of bracing contributes most to the response of the horn.


Eric
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Re: Differences between different valves/triggers

Post by hyperbolica » Fri Aug 02, 2019 9:21 am

Thayers are intended to feel like the open horn without valves, but they are heavy and maintenance is more involved than other valves. You might love them, or you might despise them. To some they "feel open" but others think they are "air hogs". You'll only know by trying one.

Regular rotaries vary from really tiny valves to bigger Kanstul CR valves. It really depends what the rest of the horn is that they are built into. Some people think these are "stuffy", others like the resistance. Relatively easy to maintain, and can live a long time. This category can include Rotax, Instrument Innovations, Shires duo bore. The Shires Duo Bore valve is small, but when I compared them against other valves (on Shires tenor setups), I liked the DuoBore valve set best. I own a Kanstul bass with the CR valves, which I like because of the adjustable throw and the lightness vs large size.

Hagmanns are nice valves, but they give you a wonky wrap. I think some of the nicest horns I've ever played have been Hagmanns, especially on bass. They can also be expensive.

Conn CL (Christian Lindberg) valves are large, and seem heavy and not very spatially efficient. Again, some people like these and some don't. I like the way they play, but don't like other aspects about them.

There are some Bachs with a K valve, which again, some people like and some don't. They are large and a little odd. You probably won't encounter them on a new horn.

The answer to every hardware question is to just play as many variations as you can play, and form an opinion from your experience. Don't make a choice based on the valve, make a choice based on the overall feel/sound of the particular instrument. Realize that every other factor on a horn will also change the feel/sound, like bore, mouthpiece, leadpipe, slide weight, slide crook, tuning slide, bell throat/thickness/material/flare diameter, etc...

Just try a bunch of horns and see what you like.
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Re: Differences between different valves/triggers

Post by whitbey » Fri Aug 02, 2019 10:05 am

Bonearzt wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 8:52 am
They ALL work on the principle of a "consistent" bore through the valve, an idea first started by Mr. Thayer with his axial flow valve.

They ALL play and respond differently, with the axial "Thayer style probably being the most free blowing, and usually, the traditional "stock" rotary valve having the most resistance.

BUT!!! The valve section also has a lot to do with how free a valve blows!!! But not necessarily the wrap itself in spite of the misnomer "open wrap". The careful assembly of the tubing and placement of bracing contributes most to the response of the horn.


Eric

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Re: Differences between different valves/triggers

Post by sirisobhakya » Fri Aug 02, 2019 10:11 am

I have tried Bach 42s side-by side. One with traditional rotor, one with Hagmann, and one with Thayer.

Thayer is the most free-blowing, and has a "wide" (whatever that means) sound I think is great in classical setting. But for feelings, I like Hagmann the most. But please note that Bach's rotor are generally regarded as stuffy and small-ish.

My bass has double conventional rotors, and I like it over double Thayer I have tried.

Thayer is maintenance-intensive because of its large surface area and single bearing. Bach has a variation they call "Infinity Valve", which has two bearings, and should be more robust. I have heard from many people that Hagmann is the least robust, but requires less oiling than Thayer.
Last edited by sirisobhakya on Fri Aug 02, 2019 6:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Differences between different valves/triggers

Post by Bonearzt » Fri Aug 02, 2019 12:47 pm

As a Tech, I do not agree that Thayers are more maintenance intensive! In fact, they are easier to disassemble & maintain than ANY other valve!!

I do agree that Hagmann valves are the most delicate of the bunch, IMHO, due to the lack of support across the open end of the casing.

ALL valves require regular oil & maintenance, in spite of those that claim otherwise!

Eric
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Re: Differences between different valves/triggers

Post by elmsandr » Fri Aug 02, 2019 1:28 pm

Bonearzt wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 12:47 pm
As a Tech, I do not agree that Thayers are more maintenance intensive! In fact, they are easier to disassemble & maintain than ANY other valve!!

I do agree that Hagmann valves are the most delicate of the bunch, IMHO, due to the lack of support across the open end of the casing.

ALL valves require regular oil & maintenance, in spite of those that claim otherwise!

Eric
Eric... Eh, I do not think so. Thayers are in a different world in terms of maintenance needed. On my two thayer-ed horns, they may not NEED to be oiled every time I pull them out, but they would play better if they were. I play tangibly better if they are cleaned and worked on. My conventional rotored Bach from ~1950, I cannot recall the last time I did anything significant to that valve. Heck, I haven't ever even taken it fully apart and I've owned it since 2012. My Thayers... well, they don't come apart as often as they should, but if I skip playing on those sections for a few weeks, maybe two concerts in a season, they need at least a few minutes of oiling and moving before they can be put in to service. Compare to the rotor, which may clank a bit, but will function just fine. Until I ignore it long enough to seize up (which has never happened), the action of the valve does not affect my playing. When a Thayer doesn't move all the way into position or close easily, it is a ton of effort at the levers and likely a bad sound coming out the bell. I wish they didn't blow so well on Bachs... I'd love to write them off as too much of a pain. They aren't hard, but they should be a lot easier.

In my collection I have the following:
-Thayers (tenor and bass set)
-Rotors (mostly vintage Bachs)
-Shires Trubores
-CL2000*
-Bach K valve*
-Holton Monster Valve*

They all have their plusses and minuses, but there is definitely a balance between free blowing and resistance and maintenance and quick action. For me, right now, that balance is met by the Trubores. I'd love a more basic rotor to fill that spot, as they still are a little more thirsty and attention seeking than I want in a valve, but they are mostly transparent to me. I can toss it in the case and show up to a gig without having to pay attention to it.

Cheers,
Andy

*these are mostly for novelty and my own amusement, of these only the CL2000 would ever be allowed in public, and no, I don't even take that out.
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Re: Differences between different valves/triggers

Post by tbonesullivan » Fri Aug 02, 2019 3:26 pm

Personally, of all of my Valves/trombones, I like my Kanstul 1570 and 1588 with C.R. valves the best in terms of the feel of the valve and the valve action. I hope that B.A.C. managed to get the tooling for those, as it's a great patented design. Thayer valves are nice, but I also just never quite liked the "action" of the valve, probably because of the necessities of the linkage used.

That's not to say I hate it. It's on, in my mine, one of the best all Yellow Brass Bach 42s I have ever played. I will eventually be replacing it with an olsen axial flow valve once the core finally goes or it leaks too much.
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Re: Differences between different valves/triggers

Post by Bassbonechandler » Fri Aug 02, 2019 3:47 pm

I played a whole host of different valves at ITF and ending up loving the hagmann valves. For me they are a perfect medium between the full openness of thayers and resistance of rotors. But everyone has their own opinions.
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Re: Differences between different valves/triggers

Post by Specialk3700 » Fri Aug 02, 2019 3:53 pm

Personally I think a lot of the "thayers require tons of up keep" talk is overblow (pun intended). The newer designs of thayers have significantly reduced the required oil and cleaning. My personal experience with my independent Edwards thayers is that all they need is to be oiled every week which takes all of 3 minutes.
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Re: Differences between different valves/triggers

Post by Burgerbob » Fri Aug 02, 2019 4:23 pm

All valves take some work to keep going. Hagmanns are probably the worst in that regard, but not by miles and miles.

Fragility is another factor if you're worried about that, something Hagmanns also lose the contest in.

There are so many more subtleties to each valve than "open" or "stuffy," as well. My current rotors are more open than some Thayers I have played, but don't have the same wideness in the sound and slower response of a Thayer, for instance.
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