Slide weight

[virtualhaggis]

I recently got a rare Rudy Muck 2H trombone on a whim on E-Bay and after spending double what I paid on a slide repair I am pleasantly surprised. It plays really nice. It is .485 jazz-type horn from the 1950s (I think)

But ...
... the slide is just so bloomin' heavy! Some faster passages that I attempt to play become quite a physical effort.

It got me wondering - who would choose a heavy slide? I know that slide weight has an impact on tone, projection etc.
but if you want a darker tone / projection is it not better to achieve this by other means (metal choice in bell or leadpipe for example) than by choosing an option that slows you down?

Personally - the trombone is so limited in speed compared to other instruments, and a heavy slide is such a detriment for speed that I would never choose it.

[RJMason]

Heavier slides usually work well with lighter bells, though not too lightweight in my opinion. I prefer lighter nickel slides, but some of those conn slides with extra weight really help lock in the sound and project well. 6Hs with normal weight slides are a great example. The 2H is a little too small for my taste, but probably sounds great with that combo.

Leads me to my gripe with a lot of modern custom makers who make slides too lightweight. That is the first point of contact with the mouthpiece and the air column and really light slides tend to lack that core and don’t hold up in louder volumes the way I want. King and Bach nickel slides are light but still have some heft that keep the energy moving through the horn to bell. I’ve played some modern light weight slides that feel so fragile there’s no way they are going to keep the energy going to the bell section, nor last 50 years or more.

I’d recommend a Butler Carbon fiber outer for the 2H slide, so you can have the heavier slide for some options and super lightweight for faster passages. They dont break up the sound despite being the lightest slide on the market. Otherwise, maybe finding a used Conn 4H LW no oversleeves. Or a used Connstellation those slides are lighter in weight (though .500 bore) and were a common modification to 6H bells back in the day.

[virtualhaggis]

Thanks for the informative answer RJ. One small point though - it is not the Conn 2H but a Rudy Muck 2H.

There is almost nothing on the Internet on this instrument. The only reference is me posting a question here to see if anyone had heard of it. Nobody replied.

The Rudy Muck 2H is more similar to the Conn 4H in size. 0.485” and 7” bell. I will give a detailed review soon so that future purchasers on E-Bay have something to go on.

But nice tip about the carbon fibre slide. An idea for the future. At the moment I will just use it for workouts so that when I go back to my Rath R10 it will seem light as a feather.

[timbone]

Heavier slides are great when the they work properly. You will get much more sound (which is more of the reason why players like older trombones). When you have a "heavier" slide that works well, you have to just point it in the right direction and catch it when it gets to the other position if that makes sense. Good "late but quick" slide technique helps. I'll play my tuning in slide horns as fast as anybody else, preparation and attitude pays dividends here. As far as speed goes, you are only limited by your ability. Nobody ever told me I can't do what an alto sax or trumpet does because I am handicapped, and the truth is, the listener doesn't care, you either play with the section or drag them down.......

[Matt K]

I tend to prefer lighter slides. If anything, heavier slides tend not to jive with whatever else I tend to like in horns. Either that or I notice no difference between them in which case, I go with lighter or whatever I happen to have at the time.

If the thought is that weight affects the projection or sound or whatnot... at least on the lower leg that should never be an issue unless you're playing without your right hand on the slight frequently as your hand is several order of magnitude heavier than the nickel oversleeve on the bottom. On the top? Maybe. I actually have a slight that is the opposite... has a oversleeve on the bottom but not the top simply because it's a franken slide. Plays great but if I could have gotten my hands on an outer for the lower part that doesn't have the oversleeve I would have chosen it. The issue I really have with heavier slides is the oversleeves, especially on bass. It starts to be a lot wider and the distance between the finger to finger that holds it becomes uncomfortable!

[virtualhaggis]

A lot of good new info in the last posts. I’ll split the replies into two, starting with:

Good "late but quick" slide technique helps. I'll play my tuning in slide horns as fast as anybody else, preparation and attitude pays dividends here. As far as speed goes, you are only limited by your ability. Nobody ever told me I can't do what an alto sax or trumpet does because I am handicapped, and the truth is, the listener doesn't care, you either play with the section or drag them down.......

First - not sure what you mean by “late but quick”. Surely you have to start your movement early in order to be at the right place at the right time.

And of course - practice and technique always helps but as an amateur player I need to make equipment choices according to my level. I once had to play Dizzie Gillespie’s Bebop and was very glad that the trumpet and sax could hit every note at the unisono bits because the best I could do was fudge along in the background missing loads of notes but getting the key notes on time. At times like this every gram in the slide and every newton of force counts.

[virtualhaggis]

Second - my questions on this:

If the thought is that weight affects the projection or sound or whatnot... at least on the lower leg that should never be an issue unless you're playing without your right hand on the slight frequently as your hand is several order of magnitude heavier than the nickel oversleeve on the bottom. On the top? Maybe.

OK - I had made the assumption that the heaviness was mostly due to thicker brass that contains the energy of the pressure waves. I had not thought of the effect of the oversleeve. If what you say is true.- does a trombone played by large hands project better than ones played with small hands . Perhaps a new product line here - weighted trombone gloves

[Matt K]

Second - my questions on this:

If the thought is that weight affects the projection or sound or whatnot... at least on the lower leg that should never be an issue unless you're playing without your right hand on the slight frequently as your hand is several order of magnitude heavier than the nickel oversleeve on the bottom. On the top? Maybe.

OK - I had made the assumption that the heaviness was mostly due to thicker brass that contains the energy of the pressure waves. I had not thought of the effect of the oversleeve. If what you say is true.- does a trombone played by large hands project better than ones played with small hands . Perhaps a new product line here - weighted trombone gloves

Haha yeah well you might be surprised with what people have tried. There are a variety of thicknesses to slides --- and materials. Bach 'lightweight' slides are also nickel w/o oversleeves whereas their 'regular' slides are yellow brass + oversleeves. Yamaha has lightweight slides that are just yellow brass tubes, 'regular' weight slides that are yellow brass with oversleeves, as well as tubes that are just thicker towards the top but not as thick as an oversleeve. AFAIK they don't offer that as an option you can pick between, it's part of the design of the horn. The custom manufacturers usually offer at least yellow brass and nickel in combinations of with or without oversleeve. What combination of any of those is optimal is also going to vary from bell section to bell section, player, leadpipe, mouthpiece, etc.

And as usual, don't forget the placebo. Does having a heavy slide make you play a certain way? It does for me. I would wager that it's a non-trivial amount too. And if when they offered the horn in question there were other lighter horns in vogue it would be a stark contrast. I've heard people describe light weight horns as 'toy like' or other similar diminutive descriptions even though those horns were built perfectly fine and didn't really have a history of being any more fragile than other horns. Some people equate heavy with sturdy or with being centred or any other myriad descriptions that may or may not be actually associated with the weight under scrutiny but are important nonetheless in peoples impression of the horn.