Silver Sonic for orch?

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Bach5G
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Silver Sonic for orch?

Post by Bach5G »

I was playing a 2B SS for a few hours today. Late 50s/early 60s horn. Nice horn, nice sound.

But it made me wonder why SS (or sterling silver) bells never caught on in orch horns. Generally a smooth, dark sound.
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paulyg
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Re: Silver Sonic for orch?

Post by paulyg »

Unless you have a 4B or larger, you're gonna make your section mates wish they'd never been born. Playing a small horn is one thing- blending with it is another.

Unless you have the World's Greatest Second Trombone Player™️, you will not be able to use a 2Bss or 3Bss in an orchestra.
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Re: Silver Sonic for orch?

Post by Burgerbob »

I could easily use my 3BSS in an orchestra. It sounds huge with my 5GS. But I would only want to probably on principal part, and only on certain works.
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Re: Silver Sonic for orch?

Post by Bach5G »

Thanks Paul but you will note I did not ask about using a 2B or a 3B in an orchestra but rather sterling bells. As in a SS 4B or maybe a Bach sterling bell.
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Re: Silver Sonic for orch?

Post by Burgerbob »

Bach sterling bells are quite different. That might be a separate discussion.

I think Ian Bousfield used a 4BSS for a while in Vienna.
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Re: Silver Sonic for orch?

Post by Bach5G »

Burgerbob wrote: Wed Sep 25, 2019 11:56 pm Bach sterling bells are quite different. That might be a separate discussion.

I think Ian Bousfield used a 4BSS for a while in Vienna.
How are the Bach sterling bells different (not that they’ve swept the orch world).
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Re: Silver Sonic for orch?

Post by Burgerbob »

They're made a different way... I'm probably off here, but I think King bells are spun like a normal brass bell, just thicker and silver. Bach sterling bells are electroformed and very thin. Someone else will have more information, I'm sure.
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Re: Silver Sonic for orch?

Post by Bach5G »

I had a few moments back in the day with a Sterling Bach 16. Someone had placed a special order and the store let me try it out before the purchaser came by to pick it up. Terrific horn, everything you liked about a 16 only more.
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Re: Silver Sonic for orch?

Post by harrisonreed »

Lindberg does a heck of a job with his silver bell ... Sort of in an orchestra. He usually never blends with the trombones in the background, so you know it's him playing, even if the piece calls for a tutti with the bones.
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Re: Silver Sonic for orch?

Post by WGWTR180 »

This I can tell you. If a major symphonic player, pick your favorite, decided to start using a sterling silver bell in an orchestra setting everyone else would follow suit. Copycat society.
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Re: Silver Sonic for orch?

Post by whitbey »

I have An Edwards sterling bell. I love the sound. However, the sterling bells do not have the light up edge that directors look for for the hits and punch. So I use my brass Edwards bell in symphony and concert band.
For quieter pieces in the symphony that need richer sound the sterling bell works well and the director likes it.
For quintet, solo and my practice the sterling bell is me and my favorite.
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Matt K
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Re: Silver Sonic for orch?

Post by Matt K »

I think part of the answer to this question would necessitate answering why those major players haven't picked silver, not the well known effect that celebrities have on the general public's psyche. Though one can't prove a negative, there are some things we can make assumptions about. E.g. It would seem money isn't really a concern for "major" players as of, say, a half a century ago. It was a more lucrative career and it isn't uncommon for these players to receive discounts or free horns in return for endorsements. Nor are trombones, even with silver bells, particularly expensive compared to other instruments. Major symphony players would have and continue to be capable of buying one without much effort.

Given that there are horns with these bells, it probably isn't a lack of ability to afford R&D for these horns either. And given the relative cost of trombones, if they were worth it, people would have paid the difference. So I'd be reluctant to conclude a lack of marketing.

Anecdotally, I can say that I've tried a few silver bells myself and I wouldn't want it to be my only bell. I really like silver as a material, especially for leadpipes, but I tend to prefer brighter bells myself for classical work. The silver tends to be less flexible overall so while I can play dark, if I don't want to play "dark" or "thick" or "dense" or whatever term you like to describe it... it ends up being more of a chore. Most concerts I've done tend to have large sections that I want to be brighter, and in the orchestral world that is certainly no exception. We tend to punctuate important moments which are often very lively and for that, the sterling bells that I've tried aren't the best choice for me.
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Re: Silver Sonic for orch?

Post by whitbey »

My sterling bell is an Edwards. They heat treated the throat of the bell a lot to open it up. That with a nickel slide and a copper lead pipe makes a very flexible and sound that has a more even distribution of overtones from low to high.
The bell does not light up; kind of the opposite of a Conn 88H, so the big weakness is no punch.
I have tried other sterling bells and they are as you say to me too.
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FOSSIL
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Re: Silver Sonic for orch?

Post by FOSSIL »

WGWTR180 wrote: Thu Sep 26, 2019 7:34 am This I can tell you. If a major symphonic player, pick your favorite, decided to start using a sterling silver bell in an orchestra setting everyone else would follow suit. Copycat society.
Oh ! you old cynic..... but of course, you are right... :wink:
Years ago we tried silver bells on a light concert... two 3Bs and a Duo Gravis... we hated it !!! Silver bells don't even blend with other silver bells. The section mix, orchestraly speaking, just wasn't there. I think that is why they are not used.

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Re: Silver Sonic for orch?

Post by Neo Bri »

Strange that so many people identify silver bells as dense, dark, etc. These terms usually indicate lower overtones, which are in turn usually associated with blend. So I would imagine they'd blend quite well with each other.

That said, I've had several SiverSonics and liked none of them. Too inflexible, I felt. Why? Don't really know.
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Re: Silver Sonic for orch?

Post by mbarbier »

There have been a few orchestras that used them that sounded great- both Conn.

Tom Klaber played a Conn ss bass bone in the Cleveland Orchestra for a long time and sounded wonderful. Steve Witser occasionally used one when he was playing principal as well (though mostly played a regular bell and generally a bach bell on a largely conn horn).

Conn 88s with a Lindberg are the horn they use in the section down in San Diego as well.

Small sample size, but worked really well in both bands.
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Re: Silver Sonic for orch?

Post by bimmerman »

Burgerbob wrote: Thu Sep 26, 2019 12:16 am They're made a different way... I'm probably off here, but I think King bells are spun like a normal brass bell, just thicker and silver. Bach sterling bells are electroformed and very thin. Someone else will have more information, I'm sure.
You're correct, actually. That's the exact difference-- King / Conn(?) / Edwards / Shires bells are all sheet sterling silver (~97.5% silver, remainder copper and other alloying materials) that are made like a regular brass bell.

Bach Sterling Plus bells are elemental silver (like, 99.999%) electroformed onto a mandrel, then processed from there. They're MUCH softer since they're literally pure silver with lacquer.
Bach5G wrote: Thu Sep 26, 2019 12:27 am I had a few moments back in the day with a Sterling Bach 16. Someone had placed a special order and the store let me try it out before the purchaser came by to pick it up. Terrific horn, everything you liked about a 16 only more.
I doubt mine's that one, but I have a Sterling Plus 16M and it's my favorite horn. It's just so damn fun to play! It's brighter and sweeter sounding than the brass ones I have, and takes very little effort to light up. Would not be my choice for loud playing, but I haven't played a 36/42-sized bell. I wouldn't be surprised if the jazz horn sized bells are made thinner than the symphonic ones.

In contrast, my silversonic 2B, bore difference aside, is much darker and takes more effort to light up. Very different characters.
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Re: Silver Sonic for orch?

Post by tbonesullivan »

Sterling Silver bells are great for some applications. Alan Raph sounds great on his SS bell Duo Gravis. SS King 2b and 3b horns are so rich and velvety sounding. And that is somewhat the problem in an orchestral setting.

Composers and conductors are used to a trombone sound that becomes more brilliant as it is pushed louder. Many composers really use trombones to bring in that brassy edged quality and power. With a Sterling silver bell, it doesn't get edgy nearly as easily.

When it DOES get edgy, the sound will cause death and destruction everywhere in front of it.
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Re: Silver Sonic for orch?

Post by CalgaryTbone »

I'm pretty sure that the San Diego Symphony section are all using sterling silver Conns. The Bass chair is open, so who knows if they'll continue after they hire the new player. Also, there are a few people out there with sterling altos (Mark Lawrence on a Glassel comes to mind).

The King sterling bell large bore horns never really caught on in orchestral settings, maybe for the blend issues that Chris mentioned. Those sterling 3B's (and sometimes 2B's) were really popular in rock horn sections though - Pankow in Chicago (for many of the early years), Mic Gilette in Tower of Power, and I think the guy playing the early Gloria Estefan recordings, and of course, Mike Davis (before Shires) on some Rolling Stones tours. Those horns have such a great color to the sound at forte - they also (to my ears) record well, and sound good live through a PA system. Also, the old Duo Gravis Basses were really popular big band horns - maybe the most popular choice when I was growing up in the 60's/70's. Great ability to cut through at a single forte.

I had a 3B sterling for a brief time, and tried it on a Pops concert or two, and didn't like it, but as I said in a different thread, I wasn't too thrilled with that particular horn. I have had better luck bringing a .508 bore Edwards into the orchestra. It even worked well on some shows that had a couple of lighter "legit" tunes on the 1st half of the concert, as long as I didn't push the volume too much.

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hyperbolica
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Re: Silver Sonic for orch?

Post by hyperbolica »

There was a retired bass bone player who used to post here who played a sterling Duo Gravis in a major American orchestra. I think it's dangerous to go around proclaiming what can't be done, as someone has inevitably done it.
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Re: Silver Sonic for orch?

Post by Posaunus »

hyperbolica wrote: Thu Sep 26, 2019 3:28 pm There was a retired bass bone player who used to post here who played a sterling Duo Gravis in a major American orchestra. I think it's dangerous to go around proclaiming what can't be done, as someone has inevitably done it.
That would be Bob Kraft ("2bobone"), formerly with the National Symphony Orchestra.

One of my favorite posters! :hi:
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Re: Silver Sonic for orch?

Post by FOSSIL »

hyperbolica wrote: Thu Sep 26, 2019 3:28 pm There was a retired bass bone player who used to post here who played a sterling Duo Gravis in a major American orchestra. I think it's dangerous to go around proclaiming what can't be done, as someone has inevitably done it.
Indeed, you are correct, and there was a bass trombone player in one of the British orchestras who also had great success on a SS Duo Gravis. I stated how we found it in our orchestra, for general information, that is all. I suspect that some of the 'common knowledge ' about silver bells is perpetuated by people without actual personal experience of such bells. I say this because I find some of the qualities regarded as typical of silver have no connection to my personal experience... but then, what do I know?

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Re: Silver Sonic for orch?

Post by Posaunus »

FOSSIL wrote: Thu Sep 26, 2019 4:18 pm
I find some of the qualities regarded as typical of silver have no connection to my personal experience... but then, what do I know?

Chris
Chris,

Can't agree more. My primary experience with silver bells is with a King 3B SilverSonic – and some of the posts here about that do not correlate with my experience - or the experience of those who listen to me play.

And from listening to others who play different instruments with silver bells (nominally the same material but fabricated in various ways) – which to my ears sound quite differently, I cannot understand some of the comments of other TromboneChatters. Are some of these comments based on what they actually hear, or what they have heard somewhere? :idk:

<Edit: Quote fixed by Moderator>
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Re: Silver Sonic for orch?

Post by 2bobone »

This subject was SO interesting that I thought I should post my observations about "Silver Bells" [Wasn't that an old Christmas tune ?] but it looks like my job was handled very nicely by "Hyperbolica" and "Posaunus" ---- thank you, gentlemen ! I repeat : I could have easily played my entire career on my Duo Gravis Silver Sonic. It's a keeper, for sure !
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Re: Silver Sonic for orch?

Post by Matt K »

I've read through the entire thread and I'm not sure which posts are espousing anything that would be particularly suspect. It seems like the consensus from almost every post is that sterling bells are not particularly flexible relative to other horns of the same type and the divergence in opinion is stemming from comparisons of unlike horns.

E.g. With the King sterling instruments in particular, there are comparisons to different bore sizes. A 3B is going to be brighter than a Bach 42, for example. Similarly, the Duo Gravis is a relatively small bass and so any experiences with those are not necessarily indicative of an apples-to-apples comparison of a horn with a silver bell and horn with a not silver bell. Which isn't to say the horns are not good examples of horns; I played a 3BGSX for the better part of a decade including all of my undergraduate on it. Just that I wouldn't compare them directly to other horns without at least putting some attribution to the other qualities of the instrument. The Duo Gravis tends to play bright because of the other design characteristics and that is something that could very possibly balance out the effects of the sterling and result in a very well balanced instrument.

The other direction is, in my mind, slightly more fair because it is so common to have an existing horn that works well with a brass bell that one might feel inclined to pop a sterling bell on it to see how it responds. After all, it seems that how most silver horns, e.g. the Bach, King, and Edwards, by basically the same as their regular brass counterparts, but with a silver bell. Is that a fair comparison? Possibly not 100% as what works with a yellow bell, at least given my direct experience, doesn't necessarily work with a sterling bell. But such an experiment would seem to be bias and not reflective at all if one's only experience was on horns of a different construction or for a different purpose.
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Re: Silver Sonic for orch?

Post by chromebone »

One reason for the Duo Gravis perceived brightness was the design of the valve sections, which similar to its tenor counterparts, the 4 and 5B, maintains the same bore as the open instrument throughout the valve section. George McCracken intentionally designed them that way to facilitate that sound and it's one of the biggest differences between the Kings and the Benge instruments, which open up the valve section tubing to a larger bore. The Duo Gravis was designed for quick response for recording, first and foremost. The early marketing of it emphasizes it as sort of a turbo effect.

It would be interesting to hear a Duo Gravis with a larger bore valve section.
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Re: Silver Sonic for orch?

Post by DougHulme »

Personally I dont recognise much of what people have been saying about the Duo Gravis with or without a silver bell. 2Bobone is right and its definitely a keeper... Doug
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Re: Silver Sonic for orch?

Post by sf105 »

I've tried using my DG SS for older English music (Vaughan Williams and Elgar) as trying to get to the sprit of a G Betty bass. I think it works pretty well (and I have official approval for the idea from @EdSolomon :) )
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