Found on eBay - East German trombone

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Posaunus
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Found on eBay - East German trombone

Post by Posaunus »

60-year-old F- (+E- ?) attachment tenor trombone, made in GDR!

Check out the valve.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Wine-German-Tr ... 0276.m3476
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BGuttman
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Re: Found on eBay - East German trombone

Post by BGuttman »

That's a European style F-attachment that is actuated by a leather thong. Note that the attachment is removable -- there's a substitute back bow to make a straight horn.

Don't know how easy it would be to ship from Ukraine to US or EU.
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Mikebmiller
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Re: Found on eBay - East German trombone

Post by Mikebmiller »

Maybe Rudy could bring it back on one of his many trips over there.
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paulyg
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Re: Found on eBay - East German trombone

Post by paulyg »

Just a word to the wise- there are a LOT of really crappy german horns floating around. They look cool, but the difference between a student/town band instrument and a top-notch orchestral posaune is not that easy to spot for those of us on this side of the Atlantic (or the Rhine).

The absence of a Kranz does not mean that an instrument is low-quality. The presence of one does not imply high-quality.

Low-quality instruments will generally be lacquered. Higher-quality instruments are generally raw brass.

Best way to determine quality (other than how it plays) is the bell. The true german trombone has a bell that becomes almost paper-thin at the rim, very labor intensive to produce. In addition, the bell seam should be comprised of many "zipper" links, where a punch was used to prepare the brass for brazing.
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Posaunus
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Re: Found on eBay - East German trombone

Post by Posaunus »

My Central and Eastern European friends claim that the quality of the instruments from the GDR and other countries behind the "Iron Curtain" was generally pretty poor. I'm sure there were some exceptions, but ...

From my second-hand sources, I understand that classical musicians from those areas would have loved to get their hands on Western (U.S. and European) instruments, but could not possibly afford them. Now that they have access to quality instruments, the standard of musicianship and performance in Eastern Europe is very high.

Perhaps those with more direct knowledge can elaborate. :idk:
MStarke
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Re: Found on eBay - East German trombone

Post by MStarke »

Although I am certainly not an expert on these things, I may have a very little bit of knowledge/experience here.

Behind the "iron curtain" there have certainly been very good instruments and also very bad ones, same as for US and western European manufacturers.
Just think about Kruspe trombones which today can be very expensive if in good condition.
There is a reason why not many, but some very high profile German trombonists play these instruments.

However as said there are certainly also a lot that were not of highest quality, potentially made for military bands etc.

I can't remember where exactly, but I can remember that I have read somewhere that the little well-renowned instrument workshops had a very hard time getting the materials they needed, e.g. brass in the required quality.

One note on the "Silberkranz" and snake ornaments. Of course there are other attributes that are potentially more important than these for the quality of an instrument. Still if a trombone shows these elements it's probably not a completely cheap one which is not a sure sign, but a potential indicator for a high quality instrument.

On this specific instrument that is linked:
1 Glier is not a completely no-name brand, but also not Kruspe, Voigt or Piering
2 The trombone lacks some of the mentioned typical elements of high quality German trombones
3 Location Ukraine means it could have potentially belonged to a military band. On the other hand could also have belonged to a local opera house...

In my opinion the price that is being asked is far too high.
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LeTromboniste
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Re: Found on eBay - East German trombone

Post by LeTromboniste »

Just look at the German eBay site and eBay-Kleinanzeigen (equivalent to Craigslist) and you'll find that instruments like that are not rare at all and sell for usually much cheaper than this (you will see some for sale at a similar price, but if you look regularly you'll find that they never still and keep being relisted). Except maybe if it's a Kruspe or Heckel or Piering or one of the very top names, they are always quite a big gamble (the slides in particular can be very problematic). Heck, even a Kruspe can be a gamble as being of good quality originally doesn't guarantee it's in good condition. Except for instruments of the top makers or if I could try it and make sure it's both good and in good condition, I wouldn't pay more than 300$ on one, maybe 400$ if like this one it has a removable F-attachment, and I would expect to spend 200-400$, maybe more, in repairs/restoration.


A note about the "paper-thin" bells on quality instruments, that is kind of true but applies to bells with wide kranz, and it's difficult to ascertain the thickness as the portion that is paper thin is covered by the kranz (which is there to reinforce the too thin bell). Bells with a narrow kranz or no kranz at all don't usually get as thin yet some of them are still very high quality. You will find instruments by the top makers in all three bell styles. All three styles do get thinner than American style instruments though.
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tbonesullivan
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Re: Found on eBay - East German trombone

Post by tbonesullivan »

Before the German Reunification, the East German Instruments, by all accounts, were rather spotty. However, what is now the largest brass instrument factory in Germany is the former Vogtländische Musikinstrumentenfabrik, located in Markneukirchen. This is the factory where now Meinl Weston, B&S, Besson, Courtois, and many other brand names are made.
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Re: Found on eBay - East German trombone

Post by bcschipper »

If you like an excellent new (but real) German trombone, go to Helmut Voigt https://helmut-voigt.com/ . If I were not to play my nice 1930th Kruspe trombones, I would play a Helmut Voigt. Helmut Voigt and his brother Horst Voigt were considered the best trombone builders in East Germany. Other excellent builders in East Germany were Joachim Pfretzschner and Karl Moennich. Those three makers were played by members of leading orchestras in East Germany. Most people in the Dresdner Staatskapelle played (and still play) Helmut/Horst Voigt. Gewandthausorchester Leipzig played (and still play) Kruspe. Christhard Goessling of Berlin Philharmonic plays a Kruspe. Olaf Ott from the Berlin Philharmonic plays on a design originally introduced by Pretzschner.

The talk of general spotty quality of East German instruments is nonsense. I doubt that those who claim it actually played on any East German instruments before. In East Germany, instruments were made by well-trained masters in their workshops. Many small local instrument makers were forced to build for export (that was organized in a centralized way). And the big B&S factory build pretty solid instruments. The Glier trombone on Ebay is pretty solid, but too expensive. You can get it for about half the price in Germany.

Kruspe, Heckel, Piering etc. are from before WWII. Even thought the Kruspe workshop continued till after the unification, their prime time was really till the 1930th. It doesn't mean that they didn't build excellent till the workshop closed.
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