Joe Alessi

ZacharyThornton
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Re: Joe Alessi

Post by ZacharyThornton » Wed Dec 04, 2019 2:51 pm

And the Q series are manufactured in China in US made parts.
Full disclosure: I work for Getzen/ Edwards Instruments.
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Re: Joe Alessi

Post by elmsandr » Wed Dec 04, 2019 7:45 pm

tbonesullivan wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 11:18 am
I have wondered why the tuning slides on the F-attachment are so long, even when an E-pull isn't possible or intended. Is it for stability reasons, or is it just cheaper to make them that way? Even Bass trombones have very long attachment tuning slides.
Conjecture: early F attachments didn’t have E pulls, they had short tuning slides. They decided an E pull was useful so they had really long tuning slides. Some messed with them and screwed up the length so there was no longer an E pull. Nobody used it, so they didn’t really miss it. Open wraps were first built from the same parts as those other wraps. Nobody really questioned it, thus we still have stupidly long F attachment pulls that don’t even get to E.

Changing that length does change how the horn blows and feels, and even different is different and not necessarily good, so who has really tried it?

Only horn I’ve ever had with shorter attachment slides is a Fuchs. Don’t know how that plays yet, still have work to do.

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Re: Joe Alessi

Post by mfellows821 » Fri Dec 06, 2019 11:58 am

Are the Q series parts the same parts used on the custom? If some are different , which ones? Gabe?
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Re: Joe Alessi

Post by Mv2541 » Sun Dec 08, 2019 1:09 pm

While the Q looks very similar to the regular horn, there are some obvious differences: valve cap and main tuning slide for starters. Anyone who has played an M&W will know how much the valve cap can change the horn, so this might not be as insignificant as some are bound to believe.
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Re: Joe Alessi

Post by castrubone » Sun Dec 08, 2019 5:11 pm

Mv2541 wrote:
Sun Dec 08, 2019 1:09 pm
While the Q looks very similar to the regular horn, there are some obvious differences: valve cap and main tuning slide for starters. Anyone who has played an M&W will know how much the valve cap can change the horn, so this might not be as insignificant as some are bound to believe.
I don't think that's accurate. Maybe a Shires insider will have the scoop, but the descriptions are the same for the Q series and the full custom version. As with all Q series horns the difference lies in where it's manufactured.
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Re: Joe Alessi

Post by harrisonreed » Sun Dec 08, 2019 9:40 pm

I still don't understand how "parts manufactured in MA, but assembled in China" makes sense for modular horns ...

I can assemble a modular horn in about two minutes for free.
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Re: Joe Alessi

Post by Burgerbob » Sun Dec 08, 2019 10:04 pm

Think smaller parts. Bell flare, ferrules, braces, tubes.
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Re: Joe Alessi

Post by Schlitz » Sun Dec 08, 2019 11:59 pm

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Re: Joe Alessi

Post by harrisonreed » Mon Dec 09, 2019 12:45 am

Ahhh so it's the soldering and brazing, etc. Even attaching the flare onto the stem? Wow!
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Re: Joe Alessi

Post by Burgerbob » Mon Dec 09, 2019 2:07 am

It is US parts assembled in China. US made bells, ferrules, tubes, etc. that are soldered into a trombone in China.
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Re: Joe Alessi

Post by harrisonreed » Mon Dec 09, 2019 2:09 am

Got it!
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Re: Joe Alessi

Post by chromebone » Mon Dec 09, 2019 6:15 am

So, in other words, do you want your horn assembled by a worker who is reasonably well paid, has good benefits and workplace safety requirements as set out by the state, or save a bunch of money and have one assembled by a worker that works for far less, probably lives in one of those factory dormitory cities that house thousands of workers and probably has little or no benefits and workplace safety requirements. Someone’s paying somewhere for that nice horn.
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Re: Joe Alessi

Post by timbone » Mon Dec 09, 2019 7:35 am

What chromebone said. This is no different than the Iphone and Nike sweatshops. I've seen the dorms too - and those are the people that are taken care of! Just like Walmart says- "Save more, live better" .......

The bigger global problem is- its getting harder to find folks from younger generations that want to get their hands dirty. Who do we pass these skills onto? How many of your friends are ready to commit to a machine shop polishing brass when they can make so much more in an IT or technology job? Therefore it often goes to the lowest common denominator, or members of a caste system. If we don't compete dollar wise for competent labor in the market, we have to look elsewhere/offshore.
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Re: Joe Alessi

Post by tbonesullivan » Mon Dec 09, 2019 10:22 am

Are ALL of the parts made in the U.S.? Even things like the drawn slide tubes? It also does seem that the parts of the Alessi horn that are for the Q series horn have different part numbers, so it's gotta be more than just the same parts assembled somewhere else. Of course, a lot of things are made by a CNC lathe these days, so it's not like it matters where it is done.
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Re: Joe Alessi

Post by Burgerbob » Mon Dec 09, 2019 11:26 am

I assume they have a bit of a higher-output, slightly-lower-quality-even-if-they-say-it's-not side of the workshop at Shires that is doing the Q parts. But that's just my assumption.
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Re: Joe Alessi

Post by JohnL » Mon Dec 09, 2019 2:18 pm

Burgerbob wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 11:26 am
I assume they have a bit of a higher-output, slightly-lower-quality-even-if-they-say-it's-not side of the workshop at Shires that is doing the Q parts. But that's just my assumption.
I doubt it. Having two separate production setups is likely to end up being more expensive than producing everything together. That machine sitting on the factory floor is costing you money just sitting there. Even if it's fully bought and paid for, it's occupying space, and that space costs money - not to mention depreciation as the machine ages.

We know that the Q-series is assembled in China; how about the finishing processes? China or US? Some of the post-assembly processes are pretty labor-intensive.
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Re: Joe Alessi

Post by Schlitz » Tue Dec 10, 2019 1:21 am

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Re: Joe Alessi

Post by harrisonreed » Tue Dec 10, 2019 4:18 am

I just tweaked my harmonic bridge to help increase the resistance on my 396 for an upcoming gig that has a ton of playing and many big passages (when I'm not on my 3B for the big band charts). It's a new one for me to have someone asking for more trombone through the rehearsal, and the extra resistance and stability is really helpful to make that happen. I'm really glad I have that ability on my horn!
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Re: Joe Alessi

Post by cozzagiorgi » Tue Dec 10, 2019 5:06 am

harrisonreed wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 4:18 am
It's a new one for me to have someone asking for more trombone through the rehearsal, and the extra resistance and stability is really helpful to make that happen. I'm really glad I have that ability on my horn!
Try to keep that gig, sounds like a director who knows what he's talking about :-)

On a more serious note: Yes, that harmonic bridge makes a difference. I also played around a little with it those last days. There are a lot of options, so you gotta know what you do. But once you know wich pillar does what for you, you can really dial the trombone in for you.
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Re: Joe Alessi

Post by bcschipper » Tue Dec 10, 2019 11:07 am

harrisonreed wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 4:18 am
I just tweaked my harmonic bridge to help increase the resistance on my 396 for an upcoming gig that has a ton of playing and many big passages (when I'm not on my 3B for the big band charts). It's a new one for me to have someone asking for more trombone through the rehearsal, and the extra resistance and stability is really helpful to make that happen. I'm really glad I have that ability on my horn!
What do you mean exactly by "resistance"? Until now I thought it refers to the resistance of the airflow. I don't see how airflow could be affected by the harmonic bridge.
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Re: Joe Alessi

Post by tbonesullivan » Tue Dec 10, 2019 11:33 am

The same kind of "resistance" you feel to trying to lip up or down a note. Resistance to vibration. The FEEL. It's pretty much impossible to quantify. However I feel that is the core of what makes different trombones different.
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Re: Joe Alessi

Post by norbie2018 » Tue Dec 10, 2019 12:30 pm

It sounds like you referring to response. Resistance usually refers to the amount of constriction felt against the air stream.
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Re: Joe Alessi

Post by Burgerbob » Tue Dec 10, 2019 12:31 pm

norbie2018 wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 12:30 pm
It sounds like you referring to response. Resistance usually refers to the amount of constriction felt against the air stream.
There's real air resistance, and then there's perceived resistance. Bracing can make a big difference to the latter.
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Re: Joe Alessi

Post by harrisonreed » Tue Dec 10, 2019 1:25 pm

Yes ^ the answers above are what I think too.

I think somehow that the room is related to it as well. In a huge echo chamber, pretty much any horn will just about play itself. In a dead, stuffy room that is full of people somehow that same horn becomes dead and hard to play. That's usually when I find myself adding mass near the bell on the brace. Then suddenly I can get output again.
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Re: Joe Alessi

Post by Burgerbob » Tue Dec 10, 2019 1:35 pm

Yup. My orchestral bass doesn't feel good in small spaces for just that reason.
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Re: Joe Alessi

Post by cozzagiorgi » Tue Dec 10, 2019 1:37 pm

harrisonreed wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 1:25 pm
Yes ^ the answers above are what I think too.

I think somehow that the room is related to it as well. In a huge echo chamber, pretty much any horn will just about play itself. In a dead, stuffy room that is full of people somehow that same horn becomes dead and hard to play. That's usually when I find myself adding mass near the bell on the brace. Then suddenly I can get output again.

Interesting observations.
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Re: Joe Alessi

Post by harrisonreed » Tue Dec 10, 2019 1:52 pm

cozzagiorgi wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 1:37 pm
harrisonreed wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 1:25 pm
Yes ^ the answers above are what I think too.

I think somehow that the room is related to it as well. In a huge echo chamber, pretty much any horn will just about play itself. In a dead, stuffy room that is full of people somehow that same horn becomes dead and hard to play. That's usually when I find myself adding mass near the bell on the brace. Then suddenly I can get output again.

Interesting observations.
Since you said you we're messing with a harmonic brace yourself, you can try what I've been using:

Ordinarily, I play with the copper "1" in the center hole, facing down, towards the bell. For this situation, I reversed the "1", so it is towards the tuning slide, and added the long copper closest to the bell, facing down, towards the bell. It is in only enough to be flush with the brace but not going through it. I usually wouldn't like that, but it works very well in a dead room.
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Re: Joe Alessi

Post by bcschipper » Tue Dec 10, 2019 2:28 pm

O.k., thanks for the clarification. I call this "response".
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Re: Joe Alessi

Post by tbonesullivan » Tue Dec 10, 2019 2:54 pm

I never understood "resistance" much. The smallest diameter portion of the horn is by far the mouthpiece throat. You also will never be really trying to put full airstream capacity through a horn. I mean, I feel resistance, but I don't know if it's any greater than just trying to blow through the mouthpiece by itself.
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Re: Joe Alessi

Post by norbie2018 » Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:30 pm

But the shape/taper of the leadpipe has a direct influence on the resistance as well.
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Re: Joe Alessi

Post by Ndwood » Tue Dec 10, 2019 4:18 pm

You can think of it as two types of resistance: air resistance, and the resistance of the actual horn to vibration.
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Re: Joe Alessi

Post by harrisonreed » Tue Dec 10, 2019 4:19 pm

I don't see how a three inch long pipe with a choke point of .27 inches could have the same amount of resistance as an 8 foot long pipe with a choke point of .27 inches.

The amount of air it would take to get a mouthpiece to push back on you and produce a harmonic series would be insane. That's why buzzing makes no sense to me. The amount of air and effort it takes to get a trombone to push back and produce a harmonic series is exponentially less. Because there is resistance in the horn.
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Re: Joe Alessi

Post by Schlitz » Tue Dec 10, 2019 4:25 pm

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Re: Joe Alessi

Post by Burgerbob » Tue Dec 10, 2019 4:29 pm

Schlitz wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 4:25 pm
Joe doesn’t play this horn anymore.
Which horn would that be?
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Re: Joe Alessi

Post by Mikebmiller » Wed Dec 11, 2019 10:01 pm

So maybe Mr. Alessi will be selling all his Edwards horns on the classifieds here soon.
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Re: Joe Alessi

Post by thetuningslide » Thu Dec 12, 2019 3:06 am

I'm assuming I'll see you all at Midwest to try the alessi shires horn then?
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Re: Joe Alessi

Post by harrisonreed » Thu Dec 12, 2019 5:26 pm

It would have to be a miracle of a horn to make me consider spending more money on instruments. Count me out haha
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Re: Joe Alessi

Post by Schlitz » Thu Dec 12, 2019 5:42 pm

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Re: Joe Alessi

Post by thetuningslide » Thu Dec 12, 2019 5:54 pm

I never liked the 396, so I doubt I'll love the shires 396. I have always loved shires bones tho, maybe it'll be perfect. I'm mostly trying it to say I've tried it, and to return to my college studio my findings.
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Re: Joe Alessi

Post by griffinben » Wed Dec 18, 2019 9:38 am

GabeLangfur wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 7:25 am
Mv2541 wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 3:50 pm
Something I noticed today: for the Shires Alessi wrap the air flows backwards from their normal rotors- not that it's a big deal, but I have to wonder why (or what was wrong with their normal wrap)?
This open loop design blows a little bigger and more free, and I think the only reason for it is the drop of solder where the tubes cross over in the other design.

Not everybody wants that - for some who like a rotary valve, the slightly more compact feel of the other wrap is preferred.
This is my understanding as well. I played some prototype valves like this while still at the company and they had a more open, wide feel.
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Re: Joe Alessi

Post by griffinben » Wed Dec 18, 2019 9:39 am

I had a chance to talk to Steve about this - keep in mind, he worked with Joe at Edwards prior to leaving and starting his own subsequent company. While there are many things that are similar between the Edwards 396A and Shires Alessi design, there's enough different to call t a different horn. There's a lot more to design than just materials. Keep in mind that there are many King like elements on the Shires MD horns too. And the King 2B+ to Fedchock Jupiter, for that matter. It makes sense - artists develop a sound and feel concept. A horn that embodies similar elements but pushes further in different directions can yield even more refined results.

There was a lot of refinement that went on with the instrument. It was a true R&D project and has a lot of features not found on other Shires trombones before now. Some are seemingly subtle things that make a big difference.

Either way, Steve is very proud of the horn. I'll send in a review once I get a chance to play it.
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Re: Joe Alessi

Post by sterb225 » Wed Dec 18, 2019 1:24 pm

As a die hard 396 fan, I am deeply curious to play one alongside mine. My fear is that the Shires will speak to me even more readily than the 396 did - that's a conversation that my wife is not going to want to have.
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