TromboneChat

I saw a picture today of Joe on stage with what looks pretty clearly like a Shires, and I'm thinking that's a pretty big deal right?
Perhaps the whole NYP will be on their gear soon?

This seems like it could cause a pretty big change in the landscape, as it seems Shires is taking over what used to be an Edwards dominant market.

Mv2541 wrote: ↑Sat Nov 23, 2019 10:00 pm I saw a picture today of Joe on stage with what looks pretty clearly like a Shires, and I'm thinking that's a pretty big deal right?
Perhaps the whole NYP will be on their gear soon?

This seems like it could cause a pretty big change in the landscape, as it seems Shires is taking over what used to be an Edwards dominant market.

Picture link?

I've heard whiffs of this. It would a pretty big deal, all the section minus Finlayson on Shires.

Considering the picture was posted by a well respected professional on FB, I don't think it would be right for me to post it here. A storm is brewing for sure.

I saw the same picture. Maybe it’s a borrowed horn? It’s interesting to think of Joe switching, considering the amount of years he’s been with Edwards.

Mv2541 wrote: ↑Sun Nov 24, 2019 3:40 pm Considering the picture was posted by a well respected professional on FB, I don't think it would be right for me to post it here. A storm is brewing for sure.

He probably was just borrowing his section mates' backup horn. Probably not a big deal.

Maybe Joe Alessi is indeed human and dented his slide.

But now he's like - "crap, pandoras box, man... Why is that slide so smooth on that Shires, thoh...."

I think JA would be careful about being seen with a non-Edwards horn.

Jeez, you guys are worse than the guitar forum people. Someone touches a horn that isn't their signature horn or something and instantly "HE'S LEFT EDWARDS FOR SHIRES".

Seems pretty likely that a guy would leave a company he's had a relationship with for decades, that even designed a horn, JUST FOR HIM.

Mine are all jokes. Edwards literally posted a video a month ago with JA talking about how he's been with Edwards for 30 years and that there are great things to come.

tbonesullivan wrote: ↑Sun Nov 24, 2019 5:52 pm Jeez, you guys are worse than the guitar forum people. Someone touches a horn that isn't their signature horn or something and instantly "HE'S LEFT EDWARDS FOR SHIRES".

Seems pretty likely that a guy would leave a company he's had a relationship with for decades, that even designed a horn, JUST FOR HIM.

So how’s that G Black/J Alessi mpc working out for you?

.

Eastman AR605 archtop. Yummy!

Hahaha

I saw the NYPhil section playing Pbones on a tv broadcast a couple of years ago. Does that mean they are all switching to plastic? inquiring minds want to know.

Obsessing over what horn someone else plays doesn’t really do any good.

Mikebmiller wrote: ↑Sun Nov 24, 2019 9:07 pm I saw the NYPhil section playing Pbones on a tv broadcast a couple of years ago. Does that mean they are all switching to plastic? inquiring minds want to know.

Obsessing over what horn someone else plays doesn’t really do any good.

Fair enough, but if it were true, it would be an interesting turn of events.

To reply to many people- I did see the Edwards video, and perhaps he was just trying something out. It might end up being just a one time trial as many of us have with other horns.

But... that does not eliminate the possibility of things brewing, nor does it reduce the impact it would have on our community (whether or not some of you will agree is another thing).

Perhaps it won't affect the community band player or the guys who play for fun. To be honest it probably won't affect me at all. It will however, effect the conservatory students seriously working towards or enjoying a career in this craft. I mean look at how certain key prolific players' equipment changed the masses. Think: if his endorsement didn't make them more in return then they are paying him, they wouldn't bother.

I think there's a fairly mixed market of who plays which horn and where. To be honest, I doubt Joe switching to Shires from Edwards will make THAT much of a difference, other than to his students (whom a high percentage play Shires now, anyway!). You don't see everyone playing Getzen since Ian Bousfield has switched to them, nor do you see everyone playing Yamaha altos because Alain Trudel works with them.

Mv2541 wrote: ↑Sat Nov 23, 2019 10:00 pm
This seems like it could cause a pretty big change in the landscape, as it seems Shires is taking over what used to be an Edwards dominant market.

Bach5G wrote: ↑Sun Nov 24, 2019 5:54 pmSo how’s that G Black/J Alessi mpc working out for you?

At the time, there was no custom mouthpiece maker working with Edwards. Also at the time, Greg Black was in East Orange, a quick trip from NYC.

Now Christan Griego is making custom mouthpieces, and Greg Black is down in Mt. Holly North Carolina. Since Alessi was already dealing with Griego on his trombones, it makes sense.

Mv2541 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 25, 2019 12:04 amPerhaps it won't affect the community band player or the guys who play for fun. To be honest it probably won't affect me at all. It will however, effect the conservatory students seriously working towards or enjoying a career in this craft. I mean look at how certain key prolific players' equipment changed the masses. Think: if his endorsement didn't make them more in return then they are paying him, they wouldn't bother.

The majority of money that Edwards/Shires/Rath makes is never going to be professionals. There are just too few of them to make it a viable business plan. The same is true throughout the music industry. The students and hobbyists with deep pockets are what keeps things going. Especially when you look at some areas like Texas where a Bach 42BO is a "starting" or "marching" instrument.

The conservatory market is a mixed bag, depending on the "gear" philosophy of the teacher/professor running the studio. Also, saying "well you need to have a shires/edwards/rath" is a lot different than saying "you all need to play Conn 88H's." Modular custom horns can be pretty much whatever the player wants it to be.

Joe switched. Ask me how I know. The money must be good. Finlayson will continue to play Y brand in spite of Joe.

timbone wrote: ↑Mon Nov 25, 2019 8:00 am Joe switched. Ask me how I know. The money must be good. Finlayson will continue to play Y brand in spite of Joe.

How do you know?

“The majority of money that Edwards/Shires/Rath makes is never going to be professionals.”

?

I used to wonder how many trombones Bill Watrous sold for Bach.

About a year ago I remarked to the Shires salespeople that I thought the T396-A felt more like a Shires than any other Edwards model and they winked at me and told me that wasn't an accident.

My understanding is that his contract/deal ran out with Edwards and that he is switching to Shires.

How it works (sort of):

timbone wrote: ↑Mon Nov 25, 2019 8:00 am Joe switched. Ask me how I know. The money must be good. Finlayson will continue to play Y brand in spite of Joe.

How do you know?

Bach5G wrote: ↑Mon Nov 25, 2019 9:52 amI used to wonder how many trombones Bill Watrous sold for Bach.

Other professionals aren't going to buy a horn because Bill Watrous played it. Lots of aspiring students will however.

mrdeacon wrote: ↑Mon Nov 25, 2019 6:32 pm

timbone wrote: ↑Mon Nov 25, 2019 8:00 am Joe switched. Ask me how I know. The money must be good. Finlayson will continue to play Y brand in spite of Joe.

How do you know?

I asked the same question but never got an answer.

I don't know what or why about Joe Alessi and his horns past, present, and future.

I do know endorsement deals matter a great deal to any professional artist/entertainer/athlete. They matter a great deal to golfers and football players, even those whose base salaries can range between 30-50 million a year. I'm sure they matter a great deal as well to a professional trombone player making, um, a bit less than that.

At this point, do bear in mind that Shires isn't paying anyone to play their horns. Not a dime. Shires went broke. Eastman owns the company and Eastman writes the checks.

Further consider, who has deeper pockets; who has more money to spread around on endorsement deals, Getzen (Edwards) or Eastman?

I only wish the very best for Getzen. The first trumpet I purchased for my son was a carefully considered Getzen. They are a family owned company that makes fine instruments and takes family pride in doing so. Yet, I sadly know there isn't a lot of money in making band instruments, and even less if a company only makes brass instruments. There is a very evident trendline in this business that isn't favorable. I don't know Getzen's bottom line, but I am confident they don't have anywhere near the resources Eastman has to devote to endorsement deals. A penny to a dollar.

I also know that Eastman is an extremely aggressive company that is not only rapidly expanding its own wide-ranging line of wind and string instruments, they have been buying up top dollar "boutique" brands to add luster to their entire lineup. They have purchased Shires for brass, Backun for woodwinds, Wm. S. Haynes for flutes, and Bourgeois for guitars. Clearly Eastman has its sights set high and has the wherewithal to make it happen.

Eastman bought Bourgeois? Wow. I used to have a JOMC back when I thought I could play guitar (I can't) and it was an extremely fine instrument. Nobody could pick out guitar tops the way Dana Bourgeois could.

Was just announced this October (11th). I have a very sweet Bourgeois 12-fret 000.

Norbie- I'm in the industry, mark my word. Any more details would be personal and I will not opine based on my respect for the individual. Paul GT said it best - we should thank the Getzen family for their dedication to their craft- they were there long before JA came around. It is our charge to make sure they are there after. They are the only ones standing...as far as US family owned companies. Sadly, when Kanstul closed its historic doors, most bozos are licking their chops as to what may become of the brand under Mike Corigan's hands other than honoring Zig Kanstul. Unfortunately, the consumer world we live in is a throw away society, you see it with fast food, and now cars, and this is the mindset that is dangerous. The Shires biz went bankrupt, remember? Yes he shopped it around. As much as his horns cost he went bankrupt? So now its easier to send instruments back and forth to China from the US as part of production and still make a margin? Yes you can do that with student horns and still make a margin. They are not the only ones in that game...... Eastman is a good fit because they are eager to establish themselves as all Chinese manufacturing wants to be successful in the US. Like the aerospace industry, we have given the Chinese waaay to much technology in exchange for making a quick buck and we have compromised our traditions, craft and know how - and put Americans out of jobs. There is no student made instrument industry here anymore. We have created sweatshops for brass making (just like your I phone and Nike garments) where workers live in dorms and work stupid hours- thanks to those individuals who decided to share their knowledge in exchange for cash. The consumer doesn't care as long as Wal mart is open. I've seen it, and its only a matter of time before they take over- we're talking about communist ideals here- keeping technology and know how out of their hands was key- and now its too late. All this being said- Eastman has financial resources most don't have (at the expense of their cheap labor camp), and that is why the move. Plus- how can you improve on the 'greatest thing' JA trombone by Edwards? How many of you have watched Doc Severenson trample through brass companies (Getzen more than once) until he found a suitor? And who is that suitor? See a pattern? And all those eager trombone players that hear with their eyes? Sounds like a good fit!

Before this thread gets out of hand I think it’s important to back off the speculation about money. Doc Severinsen was a Shires artists before they got involved with Eastman, as was Colin Williams and many others. In my experience (full disclosure I’m a Conn-Selmer artist), most top level professionals make instrument choices for artistic reasons, not financial ones. These are not Nike shoe deals. Money is involved but it’s not what you might think.

Nothing communist about China's gains in manufacturing. That's pure capitalism for you!

Nothing has gotten out of hand. Kudos to you for doing it the right way, and yes there are a lot of great players that do not want any affiliation also. Its all about the instrument. In most cases, the instrument will outlive the artist. I worked with Doc too, so I have a perspective there. Don't take offense for all artists. This is a business, both for artists and production. And I'm not speculating. You said it- most top level professionals make instrument choices for artistic reasons, not financial ones.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Tue Nov 26, 2019 9:02 am Nothing communist about China's gains in manufacturing. That's pure capitalism for you!

Yep, pretty much pure, unadulterated, U.S. pre depression capitalism. Combine that with currency manipulation, utter lack of worker rights, utter lack of environmental controls, lack of intellectual property controls, etc etc etc.

I can see why Eastman is acquiring these companies: techniques and knowledge. At least they care about it, as the U.S. brass musical instrument industry (Conn-Selmer) is content to rest on it's laurels. Eastman also looks like they are much more willing to spend money to get artists under their wings. I certainly don't think it's a coincidence that suddenly they have a lot of big name artists. Whether it's better deals on gear, or just more hands-on care from artist relations, who knows.

Don't know much about the trombone world. I do know a little about guitars. And until four or five years ago, Eastman was just another name in a jumble of "good bang for the buck" imports. And then something changed. Beautifully made (and marketed) Eastman guitars began showing up, one tasty model after another. Top notch in all regards and reasonably priced. And players noticed. Especially archtop players (man, Gibson really dropped the ball, in just about every way a ball can be dropped).

In guitar world, Eastman has left its "good bang for the buck" label far, far behind. And with archtops, Eastman has actually breathed new and welcome life. It almost seems as if every guitarist I know (and I know a bunch) is asking Santa for an Eastman archtop...those that don't already have one, that is. (man, did Gibson ever drop the ball, in every way possible).

Anyway, to the point, I don't know much about trombones, but I do know a little about guitars, and in the last four or five years, along with everything else, Eastman has accumulated an impressive stable of artists:

https://www.eastmanguitars.com/artists

Looks like they have some brass instruments artists in their stable as well:

https://www.eastmanwinds.com/artists

.

Celebs are all about advertising. A necessary thing to sell things.

Seems like every trombone guy in a major symphony has a different horn every time I seem them. So one must expect that some of these players change horns mouthpieces and brands often.

But Edwards is one really nice American company. And as such myself being a really good second rate player with a regular job I have a bunch of horns. Three of my horns are Edwards.

I like Edwards for one reason. I get really good help getting fitted to a really good horn so I can play better and have more fun playing. For this reason I expect my next horn will also be an Edwards.

But there are those that have not bought and see the brand the top guys play and buy that brand.

I also notice if I call Edwards, they talk to me like they remember me.

Jim Nova has the best take on this...

Jameseuph642 wrote: ↑Sat Nov 30, 2019 8:29 pm https://www.seshires.com/tbalessi

Looks like it's pretty much a shires version of the T-396A, down to the rose brass slide outers and yellow brass crook. Though, no harmonic bridge.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Sun Nov 24, 2019 4:42 pm
He probably was just borrowing his section mates' backup horn. Probably not a big deal.

Welp.

Interesting he still has the Griego mouthpiece in the photo. I wonder if that will change soon as well.

Shires is making a Custom series and Q series version of the Alessi model.

tbonesullivan wrote: ↑Sat Nov 30, 2019 10:11 pm

Jameseuph642 wrote: ↑Sat Nov 30, 2019 8:29 pm https://www.seshires.com/tbalessi

Looks like it's pretty much a shires version of the T-396A, down to the rose brass slide outers and yellow brass crook. Though, no harmonic bridge.

Yep.

I have to wonder then why did he switch if the horn is so similar? I hope bridges weren't completely burned between him and Christian.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Sat Nov 30, 2019 10:20 pm

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Sun Nov 24, 2019 4:42 pm
He probably was just borrowing his section mates' backup horn. Probably not a big deal.

Welp.

Interesting he still has the Griego mouthpiece in the photo. I wonder if that will change soon as well.

Haha! Outstanding

mrdeacon wrote: ↑Sat Nov 30, 2019 10:26 pm

tbonesullivan wrote: ↑Sat Nov 30, 2019 10:11 pm Looks like it's pretty much a shires version of the T-396A, down to the rose brass slide outers and yellow brass crook. Though, no harmonic bridge.

Yep.

I have to wonder then why did he switch if the horn is so similar? I hope bridges weren't completely burned between him and Christian.

You mean harmonic bridges