Double rotor explination

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bigbandbone
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Double rotor explination

Post by bigbandbone »

I'm in the market for a 2nd bass tbone. Currently playing a 72H and living in 7+ position on some pieces. Friends are urging me to buy a double rotor horn but I don't know the first thing about them!

Can some one explain the basic differences between dependent and independent set ups. And the pros and cons of each.

I'm mainly playing big band, but do a fair bit of legit playing too.
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BGuttman
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Re: Double rotor explination

Post by BGuttman »

Double Rotors have been around for quite a long time.

First we have Dependent versus Independent. A dependent rotor is in the tubing from the main F rotor. So it only is in play when you press the F rotor. Independent rotors are just that: you can use either one. There are advocates for both. Dependent players claim that you get less overall resistance for most notes since your air flow doesn't travel through the second rotor unless you use the first. Independent players like the ability to sometimes use the "2nd" rotor only. I seem to see more Independent players than Dependent. Full disclosure: I play an Independent.

Next issue is tuning: Independent rotors generally come with the second valve in either Gb (combination gives D) or G (combination gives Eb). Some Yamaha instruments actually come with two tuning slide crooks so the 2nd valve can be used either way. Dependents started with the 2nd valve being a "quick E pull" and simply long enough to make the horn a flat E. The original Duo Gravis was this way. Some of the early duals have special crooks to make the 2nd valve long enough to give Eb or D. More modern dependents are generally made with the 2nd valve giving Eb or D. Far and away the more popular configuration for a dual valve is for the 2nd valve to be pitched in D (regardless of Independent or Dependent).

Older dual valve instruments may have uncomfortable trigger arrangements. The original Duo Gravis had an over-under arrangement that required a bit of thumb agility to use properly. Older Reynolds and Holton duals had a side-by-side paddle arrangement. We have determined the most popular setup is a split where the 2nd valve is operated by a left hand finger while the F valve is operated by the thumb.

Just about any bass can be used in any situation. I have a King 7B that I've used in Orchestra, Jazz Band, and Concert Band. A confederate has a Bach 50B2 (dependent) that he uses in the same range of applications. It's really a matter of preference.

Some other things: There are dual bore versions where the upper tube is 0.562" and the lower is 0.578" (or so). Bell diameter can vary from 9,5" to 10.5" Both affect the sound. I've seen arguments pro and con for each in Jazz Band as well as Symphony.

To sorta sum up, try as many as you can and find what seems to have the sound you want.
Bruce Guttman
Merrimack Valley Philharmonic Orchestra
"Almost Professional"
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KWL
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Re: Double rotor explination

Post by KWL »

^^^ Nicely done Bruce. Thanks.
bigbandbone
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Re: Double rotor explination

Post by bigbandbone »

So, on a dependent set up, what position does that put low C & B in?
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Burgerbob
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Re: Double rotor explination

Post by Burgerbob »

When using both valves, dependent and independent are the same, assuming the tuning is the same.

In F/D, C and B are in 4th and long 5th.
Aidan Ritchie, LA area player and teacher
tbonesullivan
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Re: Double rotor explination

Post by tbonesullivan »

If you really want to see an in depth discussion of dependent vs independent, there is one on Doug Yeo's website:

http://www.yeodoug.com/resources/faq/fa ... alves.html

I will say that Doug is a proponent of the Dependent system, but there are legendary pro bass trombone players who have played on both.

For me, as a tenor player and occasional bass player, I found the dependent setup to work better for me. Also the way the paddles on my Yamaha are set up, I can us a standard grip when nothing requires the second valve, and the "Yeo Grip" when I do.
David S. - daveyboy37 from TTF
Bach 39, LT36B, 42BOF & 42T, King 2103 / 3b, Kanstul 1570CR & 1588CR, Yamaha YBL-612 RII, YBL-822G & YBL-830, B&H Eb Tuba, Sterling 1056GHS Euphonium,
Livingston Symphony Orchestra NJ - Trombone
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harrisonreed
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Re: Double rotor explination

Post by harrisonreed »

Now if someone could just explain the Shires double valved single crook f attachment, my understanding will be complete!
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Burgerbob
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Re: Double rotor explination

Post by Burgerbob »

harrisonreed wrote: Thu Jan 02, 2020 6:30 pm Now if someone could just explain the Shires double valved single crook f attachment, my understanding will be complete!
Easy! That's a myth. Any pictures you've seen are doctored.
Aidan Ritchie, LA area player and teacher
griffinben
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Re: Double rotor explination

Post by griffinben »

While thinking of the positions in one or two valves as being a high/low variation of other postioions is an easy way to start learning them, it has some shortcomings that potentially prevent one from truly mastering intonation in the valves and can even present obstacles to playing those notes to one's full potential.

In my own conception and when teaching students (both on Tenor and Bass trombone) is that when you depress the valve or valves, the instrument is no longer in Bb - it becomes the key of whatever the the fundamental note of the instrument with the valve depressed. Hence in most tenor and the first valve of bass trombone, the trombone has a fundamental pitch of F. This necessitates a completely new set of positions that are proportionately longer than our standard positions, as the even half step has to be proportionately longer once the fundamental pitch is F.

Another way to think of it: A euphonium in Bb and a FF tuba represent the same total length of tubing as a trombone in Bb and with the F valve depressed (respectively). Their valve slides are different lengths and represent the difference between the two fundamental half step lengths that we need to conceive of on the trombone. Or one can simply look at any double french horn - the valve slide lengths are different between the F& Bb slides. (An oversimplified explanation, admittedly, but a visual one that often works with me students...and me).

Following this thought, we need an entirely different set of positions for the "F" trombone. One can conceive of these as 8th - 13th positions. The benefit of thinking of it this way is that it more easily accesses the overtone series for easier intonation. Once you own 10th position, you can more easily play (in tune) Eb below the staff and Eb in the staff, rather than thinking of them as Flat 3rd position. Following this, it gives easier access to other notes in the staff and below: D & A in 11th, Db & Ab in 12th, C & G in 13th (on the F side of the horn).

Thinking in this way helps when conceiving of the bass trombone second valve and all of the different permutations. The easiest to start with is dependent valves. Because the second valve is only effective when the first valve is depressed there are only three key options on the instrument: Bb, F, and the combination of F and the second valve's total length (Often E, Eb or D). This necessitates a third set of positions to access those overtones.

On an independently valved bass trombone, there is a fourth set of position as the second valve can be used independently giving Bb, F, 2nd valve key and 2nd (often flat Ab or Flat G) and F valves combined (Often Eb or D).

Now if we used a number system (which I do use when introducing an F valve, 8th-13th positions) we'd be well over twenty positions at this point, which is too complex for me to remember. Instead, I conceive of the fundamental pitch of the overtone series I am in. My current bass trombone is independent and tuned to Bb/F/slightly sharp Gb (D with both valves combined). While I rarely play anything higher than Db below the staff with both valves, I do practice lip slurs and conceive of the overtone series for each set of positions.

This has increased my comfort and fluency moving through the valves on both tenor and bass trombone. I think nothing of an A or Ab in the F valve or Gb valve if it helps me facilitate a passage (truth be told, I use the Gb valve more often than the F valve because of the speed of response). It can also facilitate an ornament in or above the staff, very helpful in solo literature or Bordogni.

This is a quick synopsis and takes a little while to wrap your head around in practice. But once one does, I find there is a better understanding and mastery of the valves, moving in and out of them and ease of playing more complex lines with ease.

I hope it helps.
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Re: Double rotor explination

Post by tbonesullivan »

I also really look at the "F Side" of the trombone as being a different set of positions. Thinking of them at "flat 4" or "sharp 6" just isn't a good way of looking at them. I will admit however that I do tend to neglect thinking up the entire overtone series for the positions farther out than 6th. However, I do practice them, and lip slurring up high in the trigger positions can really help with control, as the more tubing their is, the more elusive the slotting becomes.
David S. - daveyboy37 from TTF
Bach 39, LT36B, 42BOF & 42T, King 2103 / 3b, Kanstul 1570CR & 1588CR, Yamaha YBL-612 RII, YBL-822G & YBL-830, B&H Eb Tuba, Sterling 1056GHS Euphonium,
Livingston Symphony Orchestra NJ - Trombone
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BGuttman
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Re: Double rotor explination

Post by BGuttman »

Actually, I consider the F valve to be 6 to 11 and the combination to be 9 to 14, just because the length of the trombone with the F attachment is the same length as 6th position, and the length of the combination of two valves is similar to F valve 9th position (Gb tuning for the second valve).

But using the attachment and playing the typical lip flexibilities as far out as possible is a great way to firm up the embouchure.

I also find that Bb in T3 and A in T4 can be very useful notes. They can be made to sound well by doing the normal lip slurs out into the valve range. This can also go for a tenor with an F valve.
Bruce Guttman
Merrimack Valley Philharmonic Orchestra
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bigbandbone
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Re: Double rotor explination

Post by bigbandbone »

Wow! Lots to think about.
My main reason for buying another bass is to be able to leave one at our Florida condo and have one in Ohio. No more checking one through as luggage. TSA checked it and then didn't put it back in the case properly.
I'm OK with E-pull playing, but friends keep telling me once I try a double I'll never be satisfied with a single.
It seems a shame to buy a double just for 2 notes. But learning all the intricacies of a double sounds pretty daunting to me at this stage of my musical journey.
griffinben
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Re: Double rotor explination

Post by griffinben »

BGuttman wrote: Fri Jan 03, 2020 10:32 am Actually, I consider the F valve to be 6 to 11 and the combination to be 9 to 14, just because the length of the trombone with the F attachment is the same length as 6th position, and the length of the combination of two valves is similar to F valve 9th position (Gb tuning for the second valve).

But using the attachment and playing the typical lip flexibilities as far out as possible is a great way to firm up the embouchure.

I also find that Bb in T3 and A in T4 can be very useful notes. They can be made to sound well by doing the normal lip slurs out into the valve range. This can also go for a tenor with an F valve.
My issue with this is that your 6th position is an extension of the Bb trombone. Once the trombone is in F the relationship of positions is different. It also requires a different air focus for sustained tones than playing in 6th position.

But whatever works for you...
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Re: Double rotor explination

Post by tbonesullivan »

Yeah, having two 6th and 7th positions would mess with my head somehow. I will say that T3 Bb is GREAT. T4 A is sometimes great, but not as useful as that T3 Bb in flat keys. I use it all the time on a tenor.

A LOT of the George Roberts bass trombone method is learning to use those alternate trigger positions in that register.
David S. - daveyboy37 from TTF
Bach 39, LT36B, 42BOF & 42T, King 2103 / 3b, Kanstul 1570CR & 1588CR, Yamaha YBL-612 RII, YBL-822G & YBL-830, B&H Eb Tuba, Sterling 1056GHS Euphonium,
Livingston Symphony Orchestra NJ - Trombone
GBP
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Re: Double rotor explination

Post by GBP »

I am an independent player all the way. With the writing lately for bass, it very helpful to have options
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sirisobhakya
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Re: Double rotor explination

Post by sirisobhakya »

harrisonreed wrote: Thu Jan 02, 2020 6:30 pm Now if someone could just explain the Shires double valved single crook f attachment, my understanding will be complete!
I think it is the same concept as the double change valve in some double horn (Hans Hoyer C12 for example). The idea is to reduce deflection angle. But I don’t think it can match Thayer or even Hagmann in free-blowingness.
Chaichan Wiriyaswat
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Re: Double rotor explination

Post by tbonesullivan »

GBP wrote: Fri Jan 03, 2020 4:31 pm I am an independent player all the way. With the writing lately for bass, it very helpful to have options
What tuning do you use? I just spent waaaayy too much time looking into the different tuning options available, which seem to be:

Bb/F/G/Flat Eb
Bb/F/Sharp Gb/D
Bb/F/Gb/Flat D
Bb/F/Flat G/ Sharp D - Blair Bollinger

I guess this would also somewhat go into the tuning used on a tenor trombone, which if it's being used purely for technical reasons, would actually make the most sense being in G. There are major pros using all of these various tunings, so I have no idea whether one can be considered "superior." I also wonder if for certain pieces people even swap out the second valve crook?
David S. - daveyboy37 from TTF
Bach 39, LT36B, 42BOF & 42T, King 2103 / 3b, Kanstul 1570CR & 1588CR, Yamaha YBL-612 RII, YBL-822G & YBL-830, B&H Eb Tuba, Sterling 1056GHS Euphonium,
Livingston Symphony Orchestra NJ - Trombone
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Matt K
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Re: Double rotor explination

Post by Matt K »

I have a horn that is 99% built... just waiting on the linkages. I had it made in Bb/F/G/Eb with an attachment to make it Bb/F/G/D. I anticipate using the G most of the time because I do mostly commercial stuff and the ability to do in-the-staff stuff closer to 1st is worth more than playing low C in a closer 6th or even having access to the B natural for 95% of the playing I do. If I have a set that has a B natural, I'll probably go with the latter the whole concert though so I'm not swapping out crooks mid-concert.
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