8HT VS. 8HLT BELLS

Post Reply
Thrawn22
Posts: 1278
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2018 10:18 pm

8HT VS. 8HLT BELLS

Post by Thrawn22 »

Is there any difference between the Conn 8HT and the 8HLT bells? Im working under the assumption they're the same thing just wirh different designations and both were meant to be like the old elkhart bells.

Is my assumption correct or am i just an ass?
6H (K series)
6H (early 60s)
4H/5H custom bell
78H ('53)
78H (K series)
78H/36BG /2547 slide
8H
88HN
71H (dependant valves)
72H
35H alto (K series)
castrubone
Posts: 225
Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2018 10:55 am

Re: 8HT VS. 8HLT BELLS

Post by castrubone »

You're right. When the thin bell was first introduced it was called "LT" for a brief time.
User avatar
paulyg
Posts: 684
Joined: Thu May 17, 2018 12:30 pm

Re: 8HT VS. 8HLT BELLS

Post by paulyg »

Someone else may correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that the Gen II 88H bells all have soldered rims, while the the Elkhart bells were all unsoldered. I know my Gen II 62H has a soldered rim.
Paul Gilles
Aerospace Engineer & Trombone Player
castrubone
Posts: 225
Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2018 10:55 am

Re: 8HT VS. 8HLT BELLS

Post by castrubone »

Yeah they're all soldered. The LT or T only refers to the weight. Thinner in the style of the old Elkhart bells, but with soldered rim.
Thrawn22
Posts: 1278
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2018 10:18 pm

Re: 8HT VS. 8HLT BELLS

Post by Thrawn22 »

How does the soldered bell affect the sound vs. the unsoldered?
6H (K series)
6H (early 60s)
4H/5H custom bell
78H ('53)
78H (K series)
78H/36BG /2547 slide
8H
88HN
71H (dependant valves)
72H
35H alto (K series)
castrubone
Posts: 225
Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2018 10:55 am

Re: 8HT VS. 8HLT BELLS

Post by castrubone »

Soldered rims are supposed to add projection/weight to the sound in general
User avatar
paulyg
Posts: 684
Joined: Thu May 17, 2018 12:30 pm

Re: 8HT VS. 8HLT BELLS

Post by paulyg »

castrubone wrote: Sun Jan 12, 2020 2:16 pm Soldered rims are supposed to add projection/weight to the sound in general
That's what you hear behind the bell. Soldered bells really just increase feedback to the player. There's not a big difference out on the hall, unless it's the player compensating for the increased feedback.
Paul Gilles
Aerospace Engineer & Trombone Player
castrubone
Posts: 225
Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2018 10:55 am

Re: 8HT VS. 8HLT BELLS

Post by castrubone »

paulyg wrote: Sun Jan 12, 2020 7:20 pm
castrubone wrote: Sun Jan 12, 2020 2:16 pm Soldered rims are supposed to add projection/weight to the sound in general
That's what you hear behind the bell. Soldered bells really just increase feedback to the player. There's not a big difference out on the hall, unless it's the player compensating for the increased feedback.
I hear a big difference out in the hall. I also think unsoldered actually gives more feedback to the player, but it's subtle.
User avatar
paulyg
Posts: 684
Joined: Thu May 17, 2018 12:30 pm

Re: 8HT VS. 8HLT BELLS

Post by paulyg »

How can you hear a big difference out in the hall if you're the one playing?

I have recorded concerts, and the difference in articulation out front between my 42 and 88H is almost imperceptible compared to the difference behind the bell.
Paul Gilles
Aerospace Engineer & Trombone Player
castrubone
Posts: 225
Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2018 10:55 am

Re: 8HT VS. 8HLT BELLS

Post by castrubone »

As you mentioned in your post, recording. A 42 and 88 are so radically different in so many ways other than the rim that it's not a fair comparison.
Thrawn22
Posts: 1278
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2018 10:18 pm

Re: 8HT VS. 8HLT BELLS

Post by Thrawn22 »

Depending on the hall you can hear your sound great or not at all when playing.
6H (K series)
6H (early 60s)
4H/5H custom bell
78H ('53)
78H (K series)
78H/36BG /2547 slide
8H
88HN
71H (dependant valves)
72H
35H alto (K series)
Steve335
Posts: 102
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2018 8:11 am

Re: 8HT VS. 8HLT BELLS

Post by Steve335 »

I had a 88HT and I now play on a new Elkhart 88H.
I found the thin bell T dented a little too easy, and for me , although it had life at quieter dynamics, I prefer the louder dynamics of the regular bell. It’s all subjective though, no wrong or right, just what suits you.
Crazy4Tbone86
Posts: 1353
Joined: Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:52 am

Re: 8HT VS. 8HLT BELLS

Post by Crazy4Tbone86 »

We need a little more clarity on the soldered vs. unsoldered bell rims topic. Unsoldered bell rims give the player much more feedback in volume of sound and particularly in articulations. The sound is “wider” so it comes back to the player more. Most players feel that articulations are immediate (have more “pop”) and can be controlled to a high level. A common criticism of unsoldered rims is that the sound doesn’t make it to the back of the concert hall. However, that never seemed to be a problem for Joe Alessi!

Soldered rims tend to project more sound or “core” out toward the audience and thus, give the player less feedback. Soldered bell rims also make it slightly more challenging for the player to hear his/her clarity (or lack of clarity) in articulations. Many players must articulate a little harder on soldered rims when compared to playing on unsoldered rims.
Brian D. Hinkley - Player, Teacher, Technician and Trombone Enthusiast
mrdeacon
Posts: 968
Joined: Tue May 08, 2018 2:05 am
Location: Los Angeles, California

Re: 8HT VS. 8HLT BELLS

Post by mrdeacon »

Crazy4Tbone86 wrote: Sun Jan 19, 2020 5:19 pm We need a little more clarity on the soldered vs. unsoldered bell rims topic. Unsoldered bell rims give the player much more feedback in volume of sound and particularly in articulations. The sound is “wider” so it comes back to the player more. Most players feel that articulations are immediate (have more “pop”) and can be controlled to a high level. A common criticism of unsoldered rims is that the sound doesn’t make it to the back of the concert hall. However, that never seemed to be a problem for Joe Alessi!

Soldered rims tend to project more sound or “core” out toward the audience and thus, give the player less feedback. Soldered bell rims also make it slightly more challenging for the player to hear his/her clarity (or lack of clarity) in articulations. Many players must articulate a little harder on soldered rims when compared to playing on unsoldered rims.
I honestly feel like it's the opposite... But ehhh if this thread is an example of anything it's all subjective anyways!
Rath R1 2000s, Elliott XT
Bach 42 1974, Elliott XT
Holton 169 1965, Elliott LB
Minick Bass Trombone 1980s, Elliott LB
User avatar
hyperbolica
Posts: 2790
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2018 7:31 am

Re: 8HT VS. 8HLT BELLS

Post by hyperbolica »

For a while I owned a 1969 Elkhart 88h and a ~2005 8HT at the same time (I've since sold the 8h, due most likely to temporary insanity). To me the 88h is the standard by which I rate everything else, and the 8HT was right up there. Between the lack of the extra weight and restriction of the valve and the solder around the rim, the two horns were clearly related, and I loved the 8HT for the same reasons I loved the 88H. They are both lively and nimble horns with a great colorful sound. They have both been standard orchestral and chamber music hardware for as long as they've existed.

I also owned a regular GenII 8H with the newer heavier bell, and thought it was kind of hard to steer, less lively, more like a 42b. Didn't like it at all, especially compared to the Elkie.
Crazy4Tbone86
Posts: 1353
Joined: Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:52 am

Re: 8HT VS. 8HLT BELLS

Post by Crazy4Tbone86 »

Yes mrdeacon, I agree with you and apologize if my post sounded too hardline. Sound creation and sound perception are very personal things. My perceptions of soldered vs. unsoldered rims do somewhat match the descriptions that I see in the literature for instruments like Shires and Edwards. However, I have noticed that those descriptions are quite, hmmmm.....vague and ambiguous. This is for good reason. We all interpret the different options in instruments as impacting our playing in different ways.

Let's agree that we live in a wonderful time when we can share our experiences and our perceptions of playing. On the Conn 8/88H bells alone, the options (Elkhart, Gen2 yellow bells, Gen2 red bells, thin bells vs standard weight, by golly....I know a guy who prefers his Abilene vintage over his Elkhart vintage) are overwhelming. However, we need to appreciate that these options give us the opportunity to experiment and find what works best for us as individuals.
Brian D. Hinkley - Player, Teacher, Technician and Trombone Enthusiast
fantrombone
Posts: 11
Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2018 1:50 pm

Re: 8HT VS. 8HLT BELLS

Post by fantrombone »

I also owned a regular GenII 8H with the newer heavier bell, and thought it was kind of hard to steer, less lively, more like a 42b. Didn't like it at all, especially compared to the Elkie.
Hard to steer is a good comparison of the 8h against the 8hT.
Post Reply

Return to “Instruments”