Jay Friedman Bach 42 Centennial custom

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rmb796
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Jay Friedman Bach 42 Centennial custom

Post by rmb796 »

Hi
Has anyone recently played a Jay Friedman "42 Custom" ?
I am currently playing a 42G * with the Jay Friedman setup. I love the horn but I struggle sometimes with the long "throw" of the Thayer Valve.
I am concerned about buying one without playing it. My current horn plays so flat I had to take 3/8ths of an inch off of the tuning slide area in order to get it up to 440. I generally play with it almost pushed all the way in (I play about 3/4" off the bumper). I would not like to buy a new horn for big bucks and then have to have a tech fix it. Why does Bach do this ?!!

Thanks for any input.

Randy
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Burgerbob
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Re: Jay Friedman Bach 42 Centennial custom

Post by Burgerbob »

Bachs are long. If you had the other horn cut, another 42 is going to be much the same.
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Re: Jay Friedman Bach 42 Centennial custom

Post by castrubone »

I tend to push in quite a bit on Bach's, maybe an 1/8" out if I'm remembering correctly, and I play off the bumper a touch as well. If yours needed to be cut to get up to pitch then it's probably an outlier. Also, the Friedman set up usually has a Bach 50 bass slide which might exacerbate the problem.

I've played the LT42BOFG which is the Friedman set up w/standard 42 slide. It's a solid horn. Responsive and a warm sound. Definitely try before you buy, or keep an eye out for an "Artist Select" horn at a dealer.
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Re: Jay Friedman Bach 42 Centennial custom

Post by WGWTR180 »

And your mouthpiece is?
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Re: Jay Friedman Bach 42 Centennial custom

Post by castrubone »

WGWTR180 wrote: Sat Jan 18, 2020 8:00 am And your mouthpiece is?
Who, me?
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Re: Jay Friedman Bach 42 Centennial custom

Post by WGWTR180 »

castrubone wrote: Sat Jan 18, 2020 8:15 am
WGWTR180 wrote: Sat Jan 18, 2020 8:00 am And your mouthpiece is?
Who, me?
Ahh sorry no. I meant the original poster.
norbie2018
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Re: Jay Friedman Bach 42 Centennial custom

Post by norbie2018 »

How is that pertinent to the discussion? Just wondering.
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Re: Jay Friedman Bach 42 Centennial custom

Post by Crazy4Tbone86 »

Almost every manufacturer designs their trombones to be in tune with the tuning slide out approximate 3/4 to 7/8 of an inch while being coupled with an common/appropriate mouthpiece. The Bach 42 is usually equipped with a Bach 6.5AL, but many pros use the equivalent of a Bach 5G or 4G mouthpiece. Not that it has been scientifically proven, let’s call the average mouthpiece for Bach 42 a 5G. If you are using something similar to a 5G mouthpiece, AND you are a playing off the cork barrel bumpers 3/4 of an inch, your instrument should play at or near A=440 with the tuning slide all the way in. The instrument is doing exactly what it was designed to do.

When you chose or were taught to play 3/4 off the bumpers, you probably should have signed some type of waiver stating that you understood that cutting your tuning slides was going to be a possibility every time you bought a horn (I’m obviously kidding here). I know a few trombonists who play off the bumpers (mostly jazz players, because they like to use slide vibrato in first position). Most of those guys have cut down the tuning slides on their horns. I think they realize that is part of who they are as musicians.

I must cut down all of my tuning slides on my .547 horns, but for a different reason. I play my first positions right on the cork barrel bumpers, but I play on a very large and very heavy mouthpiece. I also like a little extra weight on my mouthpiece receiver and my rotor cap (for me it adds more core to the sound). All of these factors make my horns flat, so I must cut down all of my .547 bore tuning slides by about 1/2 to 3/4 an inch. It is burden I have learned to accept.
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Re: Jay Friedman Bach 42 Centennial custom

Post by Burgerbob »

norbie2018 wrote: Sat Jan 18, 2020 8:58 am How is that pertinent to the discussion? Just wondering.
Mouthpieces affect intonation.
Aidan Ritchie, LA area player and teacher
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Re: Jay Friedman Bach 42 Centennial custom

Post by norbie2018 »

To the extent that an instrument need to be cut?
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Re: Jay Friedman Bach 42 Centennial custom

Post by Burgerbob »

That's mostly up to the player. I think the OP plays on the low side (not a quality judgement, just how it is) and a large mouthpiece will exacerbate that.

I have cut all my Bach 50s for the same reason. Large mouthpiece and I play on the lower side.

On my 42, I play a larger mouthpiece and push out just a tiny bit. If I played significantly off the bumpers, I would probably have to have it cut as well.
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Re: Jay Friedman Bach 42 Centennial custom

Post by hornbuilder »

I know 2 players who played in the same section. One had their tuning slide pulled about an inch and a half. The other had to have an inch and a half cut off their tuning slide. Both played in tune.

If you need to cut the slide, cut it and move on.
Matthew Walker
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Re: Jay Friedman Bach 42 Centennial custom

Post by chromebone »

I took a lesson with Friedman last year. One thing he does is aim towards the high side of the partial to, in his words, avoid a dull sound. He’s also playing on a fairly large 3g sized mouthpiece. I get the feeling the larger bore slide on a 42 tends to make it a bit flatter in general, but it works for him because of his concept. My guess is he went to the .562 slide and the the large mouthpiece because it accommodates this concept.
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Re: Jay Friedman Bach 42 Centennial custom

Post by Burgerbob »

His mouthpiece has a 3 rim but is not large cup wise, with a smaller throat than something in that size.
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Re: Jay Friedman Bach 42 Centennial custom

Post by Crazy4Tbone86 »

The mouthpiece does have a tremendous impact on tuning and intonation. I'm sure the mouthpiece makers have much more research invested into this subject, but my experience has been...

The three factors that impact tuning (making the instrument go flat) are depth of cup, width of throat and weight of a mouthpiece. I'm sure the length of the backbore has some impact also, but I have not done many comparisons with that.

To see this change of tuning, try a simple experiment: Play a .547 bore instrument with a Bach 6.5AL or equivalent) mouthpiece. Play the same instrument with a Bach 1.5G (or equivalent) mouthpiece. Even though it is not a practical mouthpiece for most people, you will notice a considerable drop in pitch. Compare either one of those mouthpieces to a heavy weight mouthpiece in the same size and the heavier mouthpiece should bring down the pitch a few cents as well.

Matt Walker summed it up well. However and whatever you decide to play......if you need to cut your tuning slides shorter on one horn, you will likely need to do it on all similar horns. Matt said "If you need to cut the slide, cut it and move on."
Brian D. Hinkley - Player, Teacher, Technician and Trombone Enthusiast
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Re: Jay Friedman Bach 42 Centennial custom

Post by Tbarh »

Burgerbob wrote: Sat Jan 18, 2020 2:11 pm His mouthpiece has a 3 rim but is not large cup wise, with a smaller throat than something in that size.
Still very big!!
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Re: Jay Friedman Bach 42 Centennial custom

Post by Tbarh »

norbie2018 wrote: Sat Jan 18, 2020 10:58 am To the extent that an instrument need to be cut?
Yes!
rmb796
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Re: Jay Friedman Bach 42 Centennial custom

Post by rmb796 »

Thanks for all of the interesting comments. I am playing on a Schilke D5.1. I am getting along fine but if I ever run into one of those conductors who think they need to play everything sharp I may have to play some notes in alternate positions.

It would make more sense to me if manufacturers would allow a little more lee way for players that may play a little of the bumper. I have a ton of room to pull out!!!

Thanks
Randy
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Re: Jay Friedman Bach 42 Centennial custom

Post by Crazy4Tbone86 »

Randy,

I sense your frustration and completely understand it. Over 25 years ago, I was extremely frustrated with my playing and the options on the trombones I was trying. All of the "wide slide" trombones had very narrow tuning slides (Bachs). All of the trombones with wide tuning slides had narrow hand slides (Benge and King). All of the trombones with light-weight slides played very tight for me and I cracked my articulations on them, yet I liked the feel of those slides (Bach LT slides). Every trombone I played was very flat because I used a large mouthpiece. The list went on and on....

I'm sure that many of our readers are saying...."why didn't you stop blaming the instruments and just start practicing?" Well, I definitely did that and a better practice plan improved my playing considerably. While I was improving, I did notice that every little thing on the instrument made some type of difference in how it played. That really sparked my interest in instrument customization.

Fortunately, modular horns were becoming more popular at that time and a world of options came within trombone players' grasp.....thank goodness for that! For me, the tremendous choice of leadpipes available today has been a wonderful blessing. That option alone, in my opinion, has revolutionized the art of playing trombone!

You definitely have a unique situation. You appear to feel comfortable playing your trombones a way that does not match some of the built-in features of your preferred brand of instrument (Bach). I recommend that you do what I did so many years ago. My process was two steps. The first step sounds like a must for you. The second step will only be necessary if you become a trombone junkie and wish to collect and play many different trombones.

Step 1: Establish a good relationship with a qualified technician. Find an instrument repair person who you feel comfortable visiting as much as several times a year. This person should be able to discuss your unique playing needs with you and will work with you to achieve your goals. This person should allow you to look over their shoulder while they are adjusting something for you (not all technicians allow that). Above all, this person should not think of a repair or custom adjustment as once and done. They should be able to listen to you if you say "this is an improvement, but I would like a little less here or a little more there."

Step 2 (completely optional): If you think that your instrument needs are very unique, learn the trade of instrument repair and do the work yourself. Many technicians will allow you to shadow them for a few days here or there. That's how I got started. Then I got a summer job at a music rental company's repair shop. Nothing makes you better at fixing trombones than doing 25-30 student rental instruments a day that have been smashed, beaten and abused. Over time, I bought my own repair tools and now I can build/repair complete trombones to any specifications.

Like I said, Step 2 is optional and I cannot expect others to have the same passion that I have for instrument customization. However, I think that Step 1 is very important for you. It sounds like you might need your tuning slides shortened on any instrument (new or used) in the future. Having a good relationship with a solid technician will make that process easier and likely reduce your costs over time. Best of luck Randy!
Brian D. Hinkley - Player, Teacher, Technician and Trombone Enthusiast
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Re: Jay Friedman Bach 42 Centennial custom

Post by tbonesullivan »

It sometimes can depend on the specific horn, but often the mouthpiece and the player have a very large impact on the overall intonation of the instrument. There are a good number of people who play Bach 50 basses that need to have the tuning slide cut, due to their mouthpiece and just how they play the instrument.

I am a "sharp" player, so even playing 1/2 inch off the bumpers, when I play instruments I tend to have the tuning slide pulled out around an inch. This is true for my Bach 42 T and my Kanstul 1570CR, both of which I play with a Laskey 59MD. With my Bass trombone, it doesn't matter how big of a mouthpiece I use, I'm still pulling out the tuning slide about an inch.
David S. - daveyboy37 from TTF
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Re: Jay Friedman Bach 42 Centennial custom

Post by WGWTR180 »

norbie2018 wrote: Sat Jan 18, 2020 8:58 am How is that pertinent to the discussion? Just wondering.
Yes it is as others have stated. That’s why I asked.
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Re: Jay Friedman Bach 42 Centennial custom

Post by Burgerbob »

Tbarh wrote: Sat Jan 18, 2020 3:09 pm
Burgerbob wrote: Sat Jan 18, 2020 2:11 pm His mouthpiece has a 3 rim but is not large cup wise, with a smaller throat than something in that size.
Still very big!!
Well... Not really.
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Re: Jay Friedman Bach 42 Centennial custom

Post by harrisonreed »

Tbarh wrote: Sat Jan 18, 2020 3:09 pm
Burgerbob wrote: Sat Jan 18, 2020 2:11 pm His mouthpiece has a 3 rim but is not large cup wise, with a smaller throat than something in that size.
Still very big!!
If it's got a small cup and throat, it'll play and feel small.
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Re: Jay Friedman Bach 42 Centennial custom

Post by harrisonreed »

norbie2018 wrote: Sat Jan 18, 2020 8:58 am How is that pertinent to the discussion? Just wondering.
Mouthpieces with a deep cup can play significantly flat....
norbie2018 wrote: Sat Jan 18, 2020 10:58 am To the extent that an instrument need to be cut?
Yes. Many people already learned to play long on the slide. If you have a horn that it's already flat and you use a large cup or rim or combo of both, you need to cut the tuning slide. The OP already plays flat without doing this.

I did this to my alto and the horn itself plays way better. All of my tenors are luckily just in tune with the tuning slide in 100%. I pull it out 1 or 2 mm just so I know I'm not going to subconsciously sink into playing even flatter with no room to go.

Rant:

I think, personally, that pulling your tuning slide out nearly an inch so that you can have your Bb in tune pressed up against the slide bumpers is a pretty terrible way to tune your horn. How often do you need a low B compared to all of the notes in the Bb harmonic series, especially the ones that are naturally flat and need to be pulled in? Far better to push that dang tuning crutch in until you lose your B natural, and then pull it just enough until it comes back. If you push it in all the way and don't lose your B, then guess what, your trombone is in tune. You can pull your F attachment out as far as you want and get your B2 on the bottom of the bass staff, your C1 and maybe even your B1 (so long F2 in 1st). If you push in all the way and lose your B natural, but you only ever play that note using your F attachment because you're lazy (or efficient?), then guess what -- your trombone is still in tune.

End rant.

So, cutting a tuning slide is annoying but sometimes necessary. You absolutely need a good inch to play with on the Bb harmonic. No idea why they make them that long to begin with, and when I see folks with them pulled two and a half inches, I'm scratching my head.
Last edited by harrisonreed on Sat Jan 18, 2020 8:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Jay Friedman Bach 42 Centennial custom

Post by rmb796 »

Thanks everyone for your helpful contents (as usual).
Brian, your post was very helpful and encouraging. I have found a very good technician (Matt Johnson/Near Downers Grove Illinois). He will spend time listening to what you need and is a player. I also like the idea of a modular horn.
There are also many great used ones but I won't buy one unless I can play it.
The frustrating part is : Why would I spend big bucks to buy a nice new Bach and then have to cut into it in order to play in tune? I don't get it.
In the meantime I am getting along fine with my current 42G* as long as I can stay up to pitch. I also found a Schilke 51 that seems to play a little sharper for me. I keep it in my vehicle just in case...

Thanks everyone
Randy
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Re: Jay Friedman Bach 42 Centennial custom

Post by harrisonreed »

What's it cost to have a tuning slide cut? I think I paid $30 to CIOMIT and they did a fantastic job. I don't think that's prohibitive in any way. Worth it if the trombone you want is otherwise great for the application you need.
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Re: Jay Friedman Bach 42 Centennial custom

Post by Burgerbob »

rmb796 wrote: Sat Jan 18, 2020 8:34 pm
The frustrating part is : Why would I spend big bucks to buy a nice new Bach and then have to cut into it in order to play in tune? I don't get it.

Thanks everyone
Randy
Because the 42 was designed as the 36, and as the 36 was designed to be played with a 6 1/2AL on the large side. You play a mouthpiece much larger than that, with a slide much larger (and a bass crook) than the 36. It's that simple.
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Re: Jay Friedman Bach 42 Centennial custom

Post by Tbarh »

harrisonreed wrote: Sat Jan 18, 2020 6:49 pm
Tbarh wrote: Sat Jan 18, 2020 3:09 pm
Still very big!!
If it's got a small cup and throat, it'll play and feel small.
Well, it sure doesnt play small... Besides, neither the cup or the throat and backbore are really that small... Btw, i play one :good:
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Re: Jay Friedman Bach 42 Centennial custom

Post by Tbarh »

Burgerbob wrote: Sat Jan 18, 2020 6:04 pm
Tbarh wrote: Sat Jan 18, 2020 3:09 pm
Still very big!!
Well... Not really.
Yes, really... I play one and as we speak are comparing it with a Bach 3G....still big... Same id., same depth, the rest are Just small increments... The difference in throatsize are tiny... The cup shape ditto... As been said here... Jay play high on the pitch..
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Re: Jay Friedman Bach 42 Centennial custom

Post by tbonesullivan »

Well, part of the issue is that the horns are designed with the "average" person in mind. There are fleets of 42s and 88hs out there in high schools and colleges, and people play them with 6 1/2 ALs and 5Gs and have no intonation issues that can't be fixed with the tuning slide. It all "averages" out but there are always those outside that intonation bell curve.

It's really not possible to design a horn that will be in tune with every player, every mouthpiece, every time they produce it.

Now, regarding "heavy" mouthpieces, the location of the weight also has an influence on the intonation. Is it over the entire piece, or does it have a very heavy rim, or a very heavy body. I just switched on bass from a Laskey 85MD to a heavier Ferguson L / Minick Replica, which is a beefy piece, and I think I'm slightly sharper now.
David S. - daveyboy37 from TTF
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