Intermediate Bass Trombones

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tailgate
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Intermediate Bass Trombones

Post by tailgate » Fri Jan 17, 2020 11:07 pm

Looking for a step up bass bone for a brass band setting. Not looking for a custom horn. Independent valves, single bore. Second hand/ used.
What brands should I consider.
Holton?? Getzen? Yamaha?
Not looking to spend a fortune.
Posaunus
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Re: Intermediate Bass Trombones

Post by Posaunus » Fri Jan 17, 2020 11:11 pm

Yamaha would be a safe choice. Excellent, consistent quality; reasonable price.
Bach5G
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Re: Intermediate Bass Trombones

Post by Bach5G » Sat Jan 18, 2020 12:06 am

Yam markets its YBL-620G as an “entry level” professional bass. Dependant though. I don’t think they make an independent bass until you get into the Xeno 830.
harrisonreed
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Re: Intermediate Bass Trombones

Post by harrisonreed » Sat Jan 18, 2020 12:51 am

I've still got my eyes on this one:

https://wessex-tubas.com/collections/tr ... one-pbf565
tailgate
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Re: Intermediate Bass Trombones

Post by tailgate » Sat Jan 18, 2020 1:00 am

Any thoughts on the Holton 181. Do 10 inch bells require more air?
RoscoTrombone
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Re: Intermediate Bass Trombones

Post by RoscoTrombone » Sat Jan 18, 2020 1:22 am

The Yamaha 613s are double independent. They are pretty good,very solid but I really struggled with the ergonomics of the levers.

The first bass I owned was the 181 & I liked the sound I was able to make on it. It was the one I used when I was in the army for everything except marching. Again ergonomically for me it was a little bit awkward & I can remember having red marks left on the side of my neck from the rotors. In terms of the blow compared to a 9.5inch bell,I would say it's negligible.
Bassbonechandler
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Re: Intermediate Bass Trombones

Post by Bassbonechandler » Sat Jan 18, 2020 1:27 am

Getzen 1052fd is a good choice as well.
marccromme
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Re: Intermediate Bass Trombones

Post by marccromme » Sat Jan 18, 2020 2:11 am

I think the Holton 181 is quirky. Funny intonation, too much slide corrections. But I did only know one horn.
Yammies are all good and consistent, 613H and Xeno spring into mind.
Don't forget Conn 62HI and Conn 112H, I have the later which I really like.
For big band a King 7B is excellent,I use it much. for brass band maybe a King 8B, never tried one though.
Never have seen a Getzen in DK, so I can't comment.
Sometimes a used Bach 50 with Indies comes up, many beeing fine, a few dogs. Much resistance in their old fashioned rotary valves, though.
Tried a Courtois in a shop once, definitely a good horn too.
Stay away from Besson Sovereign, Bossey and Weril Gagliard, I had those many years ago, and they where sluggish in response and dull in tonal color.
bigbandbone
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Re: Intermediate Bass Trombones

Post by bigbandbone » Sat Jan 18, 2020 5:54 am

Do you really need double rotors? If not, there are a lot of used vintage Conn single rotor models available on the used market. Love my 72H!
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elmsandr
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Re: Intermediate Bass Trombones

Post by elmsandr » Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:39 am

tailgate wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 1:00 am
Any thoughts on the Holton 181. Do 10 inch bells require more air?
The diameter that the flare is trimmed to does not matter for air or perceived air. There are more differences I. The horns that will change how they blow, the diameter is not one of them.

Cheers,
Andy
Posaunus
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Re: Intermediate Bass Trombones

Post by Posaunus » Sat Jan 18, 2020 3:30 pm

bigbandbone wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 5:54 am
Do you really need double rotors? If not, there are a lot of used vintage Conn single rotor models available on the used market. Love my 72H!
Or a single-valve Yamaha YBL-421G
(See related thread: http://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=12997)
tailgate
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Re: Intermediate Bass Trombones

Post by tailgate » Sun Jan 19, 2020 3:00 am

I play a Bach 50 single valve. There are a few low b's at blastissimo.
Shoulder and elbow issues prevent a reliable extended 7th position.
At times there isn't sufficient time pull to e either.
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sirisobhakya
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Re: Intermediate Bass Trombones

Post by sirisobhakya » Sun Jan 19, 2020 6:23 am

Any specific reason for independent? If dependent is OK YBL-620G is a good choice. Or even 611/612.
Chaichan Wiriyaswat
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WGWTR180
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Re: Intermediate Bass Trombones

Post by WGWTR180 » Sun Jan 19, 2020 6:40 am

Tailgate what is your actual budget?
tailgate
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Re: Intermediate Bass Trombones

Post by tailgate » Sun Jan 19, 2020 6:43 pm

Budget 2k to 2.5au.
Really just trying to focus the search.
Also looking for used within Australia.
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JohnL
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Re: Intermediate Bass Trombones

Post by JohnL » Sun Jan 19, 2020 7:45 pm

No one has mentioned the Benge 290 yet; a well-regarded but often overlooked instrument.
Bach5G
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Re: Intermediate Bass Trombones

Post by Bach5G » Sun Jan 19, 2020 7:57 pm

A friend was thinking about selling his Benge 290 if anyone is interested.
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Re: Intermediate Bass Trombones

Post by tbonesullivan » Sun Jan 19, 2020 11:04 pm

RoscoTrombone wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 1:22 am
The Yamaha 613s are double independent. They are pretty good,very solid but I really struggled with the ergonomics of the levers.
The 613H was the last of that series, and it was definitely a full professional horn. The 830 was developed directly from it. Yamaha tends to "under" market their horns. Quite a number of professionals used the 612 and 613 horns.

I found that the only really "comfortable" way to play Yamaha basses is the way Doug Yeo does, putting the slide brace between the middle and ring fingers, and moving the paddle back towards the tuning slide.
David S. - daveyboy37 from TTF
Bach 39 Alto, King 2103 / 3b, Yamaha YSL-640, Bach 42T, Kanstul 1570CR, Kanstul 1588CR, Yamaha YBL-612 RII, Sterling Perantucci 1056GHS Euphonium, Yamaha YBB-631S Tuba
Livingston Symphony Orchestra NJ - Trombone
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Neo Bri
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Re: Intermediate Bass Trombones

Post by Neo Bri » Mon Jan 20, 2020 11:08 pm

I have a King 6B Duo Gravis I would sell if you are interested. You can email me.
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WGWTR180
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Re: Intermediate Bass Trombones

Post by WGWTR180 » Tue Jan 21, 2020 6:10 am

Neo Bri wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 11:08 pm
I have a King 6B Duo Gravis I would sell if you are interested. You can email me.
Tailgate I know you stated independent valves however that King Duo Gravis that someone offered would probably be a good bet as they're very responsive and "easy" to play. There are also several OX basses on eBay at great prices. An inline(independent) one in pristine condition for around 2K. I also saw a 613H somewhere for $2200. All of the above are professional instruments that should give you years of service.
Pre59
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Re: Intermediate Bass Trombones

Post by Pre59 » Tue Jan 21, 2020 6:39 am

Does the Yamaha YBL-421G have an in-tune low C? And can it be "lipped" down to a B? I remember having a reasonable faked low B on a B&H single valve bass, but that was a long time ago, so my judgement may be a little out.
ChadA
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Re: Intermediate Bass Trombones

Post by ChadA » Tue Jan 21, 2020 6:41 am

The Shires Q series might push the budget a bit, but they're really fine horns. In my opinion, better than the Yamaha and Getzen independents. Your mileage may vary, of course... :)
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joebernie
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Re: Intermediate Bass Trombones

Post by joebernie » Tue Jan 21, 2020 7:27 am

Regarding choice of valves: I started bass on a Yamaha 612 (dependent) I bought used a few years ago and I really loved that horn, but I really didn't like the side by side triggers. I now play an 50B3 (independent). I'm certainly not leveraging the independent valves enough since I barely use the second by itself, but I certainly notice improved facility from having split triggers.

That said, the 612 was relatively inexpensive and played very well. I sold it for the same price I bought it for. I guess there's no real moral to this post--take what you will from it!
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TimBrown
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Re: Intermediate Bass Trombones

Post by TimBrown » Tue Jan 21, 2020 8:23 am

Pre59 wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 6:39 am
Does the Yamaha YBL-421G have an in-tune low C? And can it be "lipped" down to a B? I remember having a reasonable faked low B on a B&H single valve bass, but that was a long time ago, so my judgement may be a little out.
I have to extend the slide out as far as possible on my 421G for a decent low C. Low B's are out of the question for me, except maaaaaaybe in trigger 5th if it isn't a sustained and/or important note. Otherwise, I just find another note that sounds right to replace the low B. Someone playing in an organized group may not be permitted to do that, however.

I think this is basically why Yamaha has designated the 421G as an intermediate horn. But I bought one because I didn't want a cosmetically-challenged vintage horn and I believed the 421G would be a bit lighter weight than a vintage horn. It suits my needs perfectly.
Funkificator
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Re: Intermediate Bass Trombones

Post by Funkificator » Mon Jan 27, 2020 4:50 am

I have a 613G, double independent with a rose brass 10" bell. Picked it up on this forum for around 1200 €. Horn was in great shape, and I really like the horn. I double on tenor, and now also Eb tuba.

To me, Yamaha are consistent and solid, and there is no problem getting spare parts if needed.
Posaunus
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Re: Intermediate Bass Trombones

Post by Posaunus » Mon Jan 27, 2020 9:39 am

Pre59 wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 6:39 am
Does the Yamaha YBL-421G have an in-tune low C?
Yes, it's a fine low C – but as previously noted, you have to stretch your arm a long way to get there. I've finally learned where to place this note to get it in tune, and am pleased with the results. :good:
Pre59
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Re: Intermediate Bass Trombones

Post by Pre59 » Mon Jan 27, 2020 9:47 am

Posaunus wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 9:39 am
Pre59 wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 6:39 am
Does the Yamaha YBL-421G have an in-tune low C?
Yes, it's a fine low C – but as previously noted, you have to stretch your arm a long way to get there. I've finally learned where to place this note to get it in tune, and am pleased with the results. :good:
I've been thinking about getting a single valve bass to "see me out" possibly to play in a BBB. I wouldn't buy one untried, but I can play a convincing low Eb in long 7th and 4th on a small bore tenor, so that may be an indicator of a "believable" B on a single valve?
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elmsandr
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Re: Intermediate Bass Trombones

Post by elmsandr » Mon Jan 27, 2020 9:54 am

Pre59 wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 9:47 am
Posaunus wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 9:39 am


Yes, it's a fine low C – but as previously noted, you have to stretch your arm a long way to get there. I've finally learned where to place this note to get it in tune, and am pleased with the results. :good:
I've been thinking about getting a single valve bass to "see me out" possibly to play in a BBB. I wouldn't buy one untried, but I can play a convincing low Eb in long 7th and 4th on a small bore tenor, so that may be an indicator of a "believable" B on a single valve?
The work on false tones is more encouraging than sticking the slide out and lipping down. Same for the B, it will be in a similar place with a single valve. I will note that false tones for me are always easier on small horns than on bigger ones, but they are there and useful. I much prefer my single basses and HATE to bring a different horn or valve section just for one note on a concert. That said, if there are a bunch of Cs and Bs in a program, I bring the double.

Cheers,
Andy
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Splendour
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Re: Intermediate Bass Trombones

Post by Splendour » Thu Jan 30, 2020 12:00 pm

From personal experience, if you prefer a "smaller" bass trom mouthpiece (a 2AL, 1 1/2, or 1) I'd recommend the Holton 181 for an 'inexpensive' Brass Band bass.
I played one for 10 years in brass bands form 3rd to 1st section, alongside a mix of Yamaha, Conn, and Rath Tenor trombones and didn't have any major issues blending with them. You should be able to pick up a decent 181 second hand for around £1000.
Due to the valves and wrap design there's more resistance then you'd get from a many of the modern top end bass troms but I found that worked to my advantage as I was better able to support loud low notes. Compared to a Shires or Rath with Haagman valves and an open wrap I did not have the final 5-10% of volume down around the pedal register, but I used 30-40% less air, and could get just as much bite.

I only moved onto a Rath R9 as I got one set up rather like the Holton. Yes it is basically better in every way, but at 5 times the price you'd hope it would be :)
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