Holton Friedman

Post Reply
castrubone
Posts: 225
Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2018 10:55 am

Holton Friedman

Post by castrubone »

Another Jay Friedman thread! Does anybody know when he switched from Holton to Bach?
chromebone
Posts: 284
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2018 4:29 pm

Re: Holton Friedman

Post by chromebone »

He started on Bach, went to Holton in the mid to late ‘70’s but I don’t think he really played on the Holton that long. Any video I’ve seen of him even by the mid ‘80’s he looks to be playing a Bach.
Crazy4Tbone86
Posts: 1353
Joined: Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:52 am

Re: Holton Friedman

Post by Crazy4Tbone86 »

I also heard that the Holton/Friedman relationship was not very long. One could understand why Friedman tried to establish a relationship with Holton. Many of the CSO horn players had worked with Holton for many years. In the trombone section, Ed Kleinhammer had Holton bass trombones at different times and Frank Crisafulli loved his Holton TR-150 models.

All I can say is.....thank goodness Friedman went to Holton and did some experimenting with them. As a student, I was absolutely fascinated with the Holton TR-256 when I saw it advertised in music magazines in the late 1970s. It had a unique size dual bore .547 - .559 and a screw rim bell.....nothing else was like it on the market! My fascinating continued for almost 15 years. When I saw a Holton TR-256 on clearance sale in a Woodwind & Brasswind catalog in 1993, I had to buy it.

I have modified the horn for removable leadpipes since then, but the horn is a beast. I occasionally take it out on orchestral gigs. The sound is very thick, dense and vibrant......very fun to play! My only complaint would be that the slide is a little longer than my normal Bach 42 horns. For me, it is slightly imbalanced and feels a bit front heavy.
Brian D. Hinkley - Player, Teacher, Technician and Trombone Enthusiast
User avatar
hyperbolica
Posts: 2792
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2018 7:31 am

Re: Holton Friedman

Post by hyperbolica »

I had the 156 in the late 80s, same horn without the screw bell. At that time my chops were in great shape, and I played with an orchestra that could handle a lot of Brass. It was a monster horn for orchestra.
castrubone
Posts: 225
Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2018 10:55 am

Re: Holton Friedman

Post by castrubone »

I’ve noticed a lot of my favorite CSO recordings are from the late 70’s to mid 80’s (the 1989 Shosty 7 is a notable exception), but really anything with Crisafulli is always a treat. He sounded like a bulldozer on second! Could listen to him all day long.

Ive always thought of that as the Chicago Bach sound, but it’s interesting to learn that it was mostly Holton’s during that era. They were sizzling and electric on those recordings! Some incredible YouTube videos as well are still around. You just don’t hear exciting brass like that much anymore.
Crazy4Tbone86
Posts: 1353
Joined: Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:52 am

Re: Holton Friedman

Post by Crazy4Tbone86 »

Let's remember the high talent level of those CSO musicians. They could force their "musical will" on any instrument. I always thought it would be interesting to hear a great trombone section performing on Pbones or instruments bought from a 1960s Sears catalog.

Mere mortals like myself need very precise things on our instruments to get our desired sounds. Brass musicians at the highest tier of playing can make a mouthpiece+garden hose+funnel sound good. I will never forget trying trombones at a conference a few years back. I picked up a horn, played on it, and thought.... "ehh, pretty dull-sounding horn." A player from a major symphony tried it a minute or two later and WOW, musical magic happened! After this process repeated on two or three more horns, I realized that there certainly are trombone gods among us.

I think that great orchestral musicians can get their "desired sound" from any number of instruments. They usually settle on an instrument that gives them the most ease in moving around their musical palette. Be the sound of those CSO recordings Bach or Holton, I think we can agree that those particular musicians were the most decisive factor!
Brian D. Hinkley - Player, Teacher, Technician and Trombone Enthusiast
norbie2018
Posts: 892
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 6:10 am

Re: Holton Friedman

Post by norbie2018 »

Crazy4Tbone86 wrote: Mon Jan 20, 2020 9:46 am Let's remember the high talent level of those CSO musicians. They could force their "musical will" on any instrument. I always thought it would be interesting to hear a great trombone section performing on Pbones or instruments bought from a 1960s Sears catalog.

Mere mortals like myself need very precise things on our instruments to get our desired sounds. Brass musicians at the highest tier of playing can make a mouthpiece+garden hose+funnel sound good. I will never forget trying trombones at a conference a few years back. I picked up a horn, played on it, and thought.... "ehh, pretty dull-sounding horn." A player from a major symphony tried it a minute or two later and WOW, musical magic happened! After this process repeated on two or three more horns, I realized that there certainly are trombone gods among us.

I think that great orchestral musicians can get their "desired sound" from any number of instruments. They usually settle on an instrument that gives them the most ease in moving around their musical palette. Be the sound of those CSO recordings Bach or Holton, I think we can agree that those particular musicians were the most decisive factor!
Respectfully, I find your statements re top players making plastic or garden hoses sound good hyperbole. I can not speak for anyone else, but I play the best trombone that I can afford, and by best I mean an instrument that allows me to make beautiful sounds in a musical way as easily as possible. I suspect top players do the same.

I agree with you, the musician is the deciding factor.
castrubone
Posts: 225
Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2018 10:55 am

Re: Holton Friedman

Post by castrubone »

Crazy4Tbone86 wrote: Mon Jan 20, 2020 9:46 am Let's remember the high talent level of those CSO musicians. They could force their "musical will" on any instrument. I always thought it would be interesting to hear a great trombone section performing on Pbones or instruments bought from a 1960s Sears catalog.

Mere mortals like myself need very precise things on our instruments to get our desired sounds. Brass musicians at the highest tier of playing can make a mouthpiece+garden hose+funnel sound good. I will never forget trying trombones at a conference a few years back. I picked up a horn, played on it, and thought.... "ehh, pretty dull-sounding horn." A player from a major symphony tried it a minute or two later and WOW, musical magic happened! After this process repeated on two or three more horns, I realized that there certainly are trombone gods among us.

I think that great orchestral musicians can get their "desired sound" from any number of instruments. They usually settle on an instrument that gives them the most ease in moving around their musical palette. Be the sound of those CSO recordings Bach or Holton, I think we can agree that those particular musicians were the most decisive factor!
Garden hoses aside...pro players can sound good on most pro level horns...but they will not sound the same on a Bach as they do a Holton. Any further debate on that should be taken to a new thread, I'd like to keep this to gathering historical info on the CSO section.

Maybe there are some first hand accounts from people who saw the CSO live/studied with those players in the 70's and 80's that could compare that sound to the current sound?

Instrument choice is just one of many many factors, but I've even heard Jay Friedman in an interview talk about how he thinks the CSO brass had a more "electric" sound in the 70's and 80's. I wasn't alive then, but the recordings I've listened to back that statement up.
Dennis
Posts: 196
Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2018 6:23 pm
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA

Re: Holton Friedman

Post by Dennis »

Crazy4Tbone86 wrote: Mon Jan 20, 2020 9:46 am

Respectfully, I find your statements re top players making plastic or garden hoses sound good hyperbole.

snip

I agree with you, the musician is the deciding factor.
It isn't all that hyperbolic.

In the first Hoffnung concert, Dennis Brain played the 3rd movement of a Leopold Mozart horn concerto on a piece of hose with his horn mouthpiece at one end and a kitchen funnel at the other end. The result is very credible.

Gerard Hoffnung organized the thing thinking it would be fun to have the world's best horn player struggling with a chunk of hose. Brain pulled it off just fine.

No, the hose was not as resonant as his Alexander Bb. But he was able to make music with that hose and funnel.
islander
Posts: 52
Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2018 6:39 am
Location: Twickenham, UK

Re: Holton Friedman

Post by islander »

Crazy4Tbone86 wrote: Sat Jan 18, 2020 3:17 pm
As a student, I was absolutely fascinated with the Holton TR-256 when I saw it advertised in music magazines in the late 1970s. It had a unique size dual bore .547 - .559 and a screw rim bell.....nothing else was like it on the market! My fascinating continued for almost 15 years. When I saw a Holton TR-256 on clearance sale in a Woodwind & Brasswind catalog in 1993, I had to buy it.

I bought a TR-256 in very nice condition on eBay for £500 two years ago. Easily the best £500 I ever spent - a magnificent horn of great character, but the throttle needs a light touch I would say.
bcschipper
Posts: 203
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2018 11:52 pm
Location: California
Contact:

Re: Holton Friedman

Post by bcschipper »

Holten TR156 Friedman review:

jph
Posts: 110
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2018 5:30 am
Location: Richmond, Virginia

Re: Holton Friedman

Post by jph »

The older European players seem to catch the value of the 1969-1979 produced large bore Holtons. The value seems to escape their USA counterparts who are consumed with the "latest"...Shires, Edwards. etc. If I just combine a Black mouthpiece with a Edwards horn I'll have a significant advantage. In statistical terms, my prediction is that their assumed advantage is "statistically insignificant." The continual condemnation of the older Holton horns for their high resistance characteristics and smaller F-attachment valve (valid) is amusing. Resistance can (but not always...clearly) be good...remember. One is reminded of Murray Crewe's audition on borrowed parts (i.e. assembling a trombone...as his instrument was destroyed on a flight) for an audition. He won the audition on the spontaneously constructed instrument. It's the "Sound" (produced)...stupid, that the Conductor desires. You actually may NOT be the best technically, or on any other significant facet of the screened audition. Clip a note or two and you're out anyway...the hot lights are on. Sound!

Now this is clearly an old fart's "has-never-really-been perspective"...but I could not resist.

Good news: old 1970s tenor Holtons in very good condition (meaning a couple of ultrasounds to get the gunk out...with decent slide plating): best bargain out there.
drbucher
Posts: 35
Joined: Wed Feb 16, 2022 8:03 am

Re: Holton Friedman

Post by drbucher »

That Schmitt Music review above is for a 0.541" bore, not the 0.547"/0.559" bore Jay Friedman used.
Doldom
Posts: 40
Joined: Sat May 12, 2018 8:34 am

Re: Holton Friedman

Post by Doldom »

It's a bit late reply for this post, but as I know he played Holton only in 1980-1982. Only the dual bore version with screw bell. I asked him via email.
Doldom
Posts: 40
Joined: Sat May 12, 2018 8:34 am

Re: Holton Friedman

Post by Doldom »



Friedman was using Holton in this video(I guess).
There was another same video with much more views, but strangely I can't find it anymore.
You could almost see a screw bell, very thick mouthpiece receiver(thicker than bach), and nickel silver outer slide, all of these features indicates that it's a Holton, (but I might be wrong)
If there's any other video you know, please share here.
Posaunus
Posts: 3424
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:54 pm
Location: California

Re: Holton Friedman

Post by Posaunus »

Doldom wrote: Fri Mar 25, 2022 1:25 am Friedman was using Holton in this video(I guess).
You could almost see a screw bell, very thick mouthpiece receiver (thicker than Bach), and nickel silver outer slide, all of these features indicate that it's a Holton (but I might be wrong).
Wow. A blast from the past.
Based on personnel, youthful appearance, etc. I'd guess early 70s. Nearly all-male CSO.
I know nothing about Holtons, but Jay's trombone does appear to have a screw bell.

I heard CSO play this and Mahler 5 in Boston in 1971. Best concert I have ever attended!
User avatar
Burgerbob
Posts: 4526
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:10 pm
Location: LA
Contact:

Re: Holton Friedman

Post by Burgerbob »

Doldom wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 11:42 pm It's a bit late reply for this post, but as I know he played Holton only in 1980-1982. Only the dual bore version with screw bell. I asked him via email.
Thanks for that info, very interesting!!

I am currently playing the non-Friedman 258 (screwbell, F attachment, .547) and am quite enjoying it. To my face and ears it's close to 88H land.
Aidan Ritchie, LA area player and teacher
CalgaryTbone
Posts: 1049
Joined: Thu May 10, 2018 1:39 pm

Re: Holton Friedman

Post by CalgaryTbone »

Doldom wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 11:42 pm It's a bit late reply for this post, but as I know he played Holton only in 1980-1982. Only the dual bore version with screw bell. I asked him via email.
Are you sure about those dates? I tried out a Holton Friedman model early in my school years (1975 - 81), and I started here in Calgary in September of "81. He had gone back to the Bach before I came here, and he was featured in Holton ads in various publications (ITA, etc.) early in my student years. I'm also pretty sure I heard him at Carnegie once or twice on the Holton in the mid/late 70's.

Maybe he went back to it briefly? The red screw bell is something that you can notice from the audience.

Jim Scott
CalgaryTbone
Posts: 1049
Joined: Thu May 10, 2018 1:39 pm

Re: Holton Friedman

Post by CalgaryTbone »

OK - as Pops Conductor Richard Hayman used to like to say in rehearsals - "memory is the 2nd thing to go - can't remember the first". I went on the ITA site and checked some back issues - no ads in the early ones, but there's a Jay Friedman Holton ad in the January 1982 journal. Maybe I tried one just shortly before I left NYC, at Giardinelli's before they left for upstate NY.

Jim Scott
BassBoneFL
Posts: 84
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2018 9:04 am

Re: Holton Friedman

Post by BassBoneFL »

I moved to Chicago in June of '83. It was around that time +/- that Jay switched to a Bach 42 (no valve). He played that until around 86/87 when he added a Thayer valve to his Bach.

As for the rest of the section Crisafulli played mostly on his Holton TR-150 with a 9in yellow bell he'd had since the 50s. He occasionally played a gold plated Schilke that Ren had made for him in the 70s. (had a Yamaha-style closed wrap, screw bell, and a .557 bore) He also toyed with a Monette for about 2mos.(he wasn't a fan) Kleinhammer played a 10in Williams bell, F/D independent valves (small Meinl F tuba valves), .562/.580 slide made by John Haynor (no leadpipe). Jim Gilbertsen played a Conn 8H.
Harold Van Schaik
Bass Trombone
The Florida Orchestra
S.E. Shires Artist
User avatar
ithinknot
Posts: 1038
Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2020 3:40 pm

Re: Holton Friedman

Post by ithinknot »

The Schubert video is from 1979 - says so in the description.
CalgaryTbone
Posts: 1049
Joined: Thu May 10, 2018 1:39 pm

Re: Holton Friedman

Post by CalgaryTbone »

BassBoneFL wrote: Fri Mar 25, 2022 3:37 pm I moved to Chicago in June of '83. It was around that time +/- that Jay switched to a Bach 42 (no valve). He played that until around 86/87 when he added a Thayer valve to his Bach.

As for the rest of the section Crisafulli played mostly on his Holton TR-150 with a 9in yellow bell he'd had since the 50s. He occasionally played a gold plated Schilke that Ren had made for him in the 70s. (had a Yamaha-style closed wrap, screw bell, and a .557 bore) He also toyed with a Monette for about 2mos.(he wasn't a fan) Kleinhammer played a 10in Williams bell, F/D independent valves (small Meinl F tuba valves), .562/.580 slide made by John Haynor (no leadpipe). Jim Gilbertsen played a Conn 8H.
Thanks Harold! Crisafulli was playing that Schilke in a lesson that I had with him in NYC, one time while they were on tour. Beautiful horn to look at, and he sounded great - as always!

Jim Scott
BassBoneFL
Posts: 84
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2018 9:04 am

Re: Holton Friedman

Post by BassBoneFL »

ithinknot wrote: Fri Mar 25, 2022 3:44 pm The Schubert video is from 1979 - says so in the description.
That would be about right. He was on a Bach before his brief dalliance with Holton
Harold Van Schaik
Bass Trombone
The Florida Orchestra
S.E. Shires Artist
Post Reply

Return to “Instruments”