Couple of New Bass Bone Questions

[AlanLi]

Hey all,

Just thought to get some opinions here.

I played a YBL-830 for a couple years before selling it recently and I’m thinking of upgrading to something a bit different (or better, idk). Hoping that someone could point me in the right direction. I’ve looked at Bach, Shires, Getzen, Edwards and Rath and couldn’t definitely come to complete agreement with one. Tried a Independent rotary Q series Shires that was good, but didn’t really wow me in anyway. Just recently tried a red bell Thayer Getzen that was frankly terrible, boring sounding and hard to respond, though I’m sure it’s just that specific horn. Recently played on a old 50Bl, plays really well except in the valve register, which was super stuffy. Had a couple of people tell me that Rath are “overpriced”, but I was hoping to try some out near Toronto by the end of the month.

1. Is there any huge playing discrepancies between similar Edwards and Shires (dual bore, Thayer valve) or is it more of the issue of brand loyalty

2. Is the Rath R9 a significantly different sounding horn like people have said? How does it stack up to the Shires/Edwards/Bach.

3. How does the Thayers Bach 50 stack up to the shires/Edwards counterpart, and is it something that I can have full confidence in ordering blind (heard some terrible QC issues, not sure if that’s still applicable).

Edit: I understand "you have to try it to know it", but I'm just looking for some comments on the playing characteristics of the instruments so I have an easier time deciding.

[bassbone]

I think the answers to all three of those are going to be very dependent on individual perspective (bias), but here goes...
1) I am firmly team Shires on this issue. When I was looking for a new horn (10-15 years ago) they had a lot more valve configuration options beyond thayers which was attractive to me. Before I switched to Shires, I was playing an Edwards I purchased used and their thayers seemed terrible to me even after I paid them a very significant amount of money to completely rebuild them. Part of my draw to Shires was also having some very bad customer service issues with Edwards. These issues left me unwilling to financially support them under any circumstances.

Great players use both brands, though.

2) not much experience playing Rath so I will not answer this.

3) I would personally never buy a new Bach blind without playing it. Can't tell where you are at based on your profile, but every professional I know that plays a new Bach they are happy with went to Elkhart or another place they could try a ton of examples of the model they were looking for and picked the best of the 12 or 15 or 20 they tried.

[tbonesullivan]

The YBL-830 is a great horn. What exactly are you looking for that the 830 couldn't provide?

Shires, Edwards, and Rath are all modular horns, with multiple slide, bell, and valve options. It's not really possible to compare them in the way you are asking, as they vary substantially from horn to horn. The idea with the custom modular horns is really to get a horn fitted to your specific needs. All three companies should be able to do that.

I know this probably isn't what you want to hear, but if you want a horn that really fits you, you're going to need to play test them.

[Thrawn22]

You're going to have to try a bunch and go from there.

Brand loyalty plays a part i think for most. I prefer vintage Conns myself. If you're budget allows for a Shires I'd say go with that. Its hard to find a good stock horn.

I base my horn choices off of who's playing what on a particular album. I like a LOT of Stan Kenton. So i bought a 72H because thats what his guys typically used. Same with my 6H. Beyond those examples its brand loyalty.

Only other thing i can say is a standard rotor type valve section is the better way to go. I've found Thayer valves to be too heavy and slower in response than a standard rotor. And with rotors like the rotax or Olsen valves blowing just as freely why kill your shoulder and budger lugging those around.

My 2 cents.

[AlanLi]

The YBL-830 is a great horn. What exactly are you looking for that the 830 couldn't provide?

Shires, Edwards, and Rath are all modular horns, with multiple slide, bell, and valve options. It's not really possible to compare them in the way you are asking, as they vary substantially from horn to horn. The idea with the custom modular horns is really to get a horn fitted to your specific needs. All three companies should be able to do that.

I know this probably isn't what you want to hear, but if you want a horn that really fits you, you're going to need to play test them.

My particular horn sounds like a tenor with two valves. Not saying its a bad thing, but I couldn't get the sound that I spent 10 mins on the Getzen on my old horn, if that makes any sense.

[Tooloud]

My particular horn sounds like a tenor with two valves. Not saying its a bad thing, but I couldn't get the sound that I spent 10 mins on the Getzen on my old horn, if that makes any sense.

Well, why is this bad? More often than not the bassbone is playing with the trombones. So sounding like a trombone might be advantageous, don't you think so?
I am a natural born bass player - my first trombone was a bass, though I didn't even know... - and I know how much fun it is to explore the deep kingdom underneath the lines, but in fact: How often does the music on your stand actually require playing in pedal register?

Buying instruments online / unseen: Like all the others already said: Don't!
Escpecially buying Bach unseen / unplayed: Don't ever! There are too many dogs among them - speaking from experience.

And last: It's the man, not the machine. It's you making the sound, if the sound is in your head, the instrument will transfer it to the audience. Nothing more. Do you think Mr. Yeo is a bad bass? Does he sound thin or uninteresting? He plays Yamaha for many years...

[tbonesullivan]

My particular horn sounds like a tenor with two valves. Not saying its a bad thing, but I couldn't get the sound that I spent 10 mins on the Getzen on my old horn, if that makes any sense.

What mouthpiece are you using? That can have a pretty big affect on the sound you get. Also, so can your sound concept. George Roberts had a great "bass trombone" sound on what would today be considered a smaller size bass trombone, and probably using a Bach 1 1/2G or smaller mouthpiece. It's really about learning to slow down the air, kind of like playing a contrabass tuba.

[Rob1662]

I had a Rath R9 dependent and had nothing but trouble with it - Hagmann valves being flexed by poorly aligned bell fitments, acid stains and one valve section that was so flat that it was impossible to get in tune with the Bb instrument.

Got a Kanstul 1662 now, it's a lot better/lighter nicer sound , has it's faults but the fact that it's not modular helps it play consistently.

[harrisonreed]

Edwards WAS building very heavy everything 10-15 years ago, or perhaps was just beginning to transition out of that. Meanwhile, Shires seemed to gravitate towards pushing their thinned out, treated bells in the early 2000s, maybe even earlier. Edwards stuff seems to have gravitated towards the lighter side of the spectrum, especially their non-modular series.

I think both companies offered heavy and light gear at all times, though.

[ssking2b]

Try The XO Brass 1240-RL (regular rotors) or the 1240-RT-T (flow thru valves , can't say Thay*** valves for copyright reasons). These horns are fantastic. I have chosen the 1240-RL as my bass of choice because it plays so wekl!

[JohnL]

I think the most telling piece of information is that the OP says that his YBL-830 "sounds like a tenor with two valves". The YBL-830 is a really good bass trombone that's pretty much "straight down the middle" in most ways, avoiding extremes in size, weight, and sound.

So what does he like? An old Bach 50BL. Now that's a horn that isn't "straight down the middle"; I haven't met very many bass trombonists who have liked the "L" bell, even ones that generally like Bachs.

My suggestion? Go modular and take the time/expense to get "fitted" by an expert. If that's not an option, try to find a nice 50BL and get the valves opened up.

[hyperbolica]

The Rath is going to be lighter than the others mainly because of the lack of bracing and the valves. Axial valves are pretty heavy, and I don't think you can get a Rath with axials. The closest thing will be Hagmanns, which are heavier than Rotax rotaries, but not as heavy as axials. I'd guess Rath is not going to appeal to you, based on what you've said.

There's no way I'd put $6-7k down on a horn without playing something configured pretty much like it. It would be a good idea to get something used you won't lose a lot of money on if you decide you don't like it, but it sounds like you're just interested in something new.

Best of luck.

[MTbassbone]

I also think the YBL-830 is a great horn (I also like the YBL-620G bass). I have owned stock horns (like Bach, King, and Conn), and I have owned fully customizable horns (like Edwards and Shires). I have played many of the other options at stores, trade shows, and conventions. It is easy to go down the rabbit hole of fully customizable horns (and mouthpieces), and continuously be searching for a sound that can't be bought. I was on this endless journey a few years ago. It is frustrating when you don't find what you want, and can be paralyzing when that frustration compounds itself after many tries. As the years have worn on I find myself trying to simplify by giving myself less options (mouthpieces, leadpipes, bells, etc), and try to right the ship with a "reasonable" choice of a trombone heavily fortified by practice.
My two cents on the matter is if you wish to have a fully customizable horn please travel to someplace where they have many of the options available, if not the factory. Preferably have someone with you who you can trust their judgement. Blindly test horns using something you know how to play comfortably (potentially from memory) that contains contrasting styles that represents the bread and butter of your work. Choose something, field test the horn, make 1-2 adjustments if necessary, and then forget the options. The second option would be to find a stock horn that you like. Finally here are some pieces of advice I have been give over the years about equipment:
1. You will sound like you. Embrace it, and learn to manipulate it your advantage.
2. Play the smallest equipment you can get away with.
3. There is always a compromise with equipment.
4. Keep an open mind, a keen ear, and save as much bread for a day you will need it.

[AlanLi]

My particular horn sounds like a tenor with two valves. Not saying its a bad thing, but I couldn't get the sound that I spent 10 mins on the Getzen on my old horn, if that makes any sense.

What mouthpiece are you using? That can have a pretty big affect on the sound you get. Also, so can your sound concept. George Roberts had a great "bass trombone" sound on what would today be considered a smaller size bass trombone, and probably using a Bach 1 1/2G or smaller mouthpiece. It's really about learning to slow down the air, kind of like playing a contrabass tuba.

Schilke 59, sometimes a Bach 1/4. But yah, I totally get what you’re saying.

[sirisobhakya]

I also have the 830. It sounds quite different with 59L (1 1/2 G-ish - smaller and more focused), 60BL (shallow - brighter), and Yeo (largest, deepest).

Try changing mouthpiece first. But I agree that according to your opinion you may like horns with larger throat and bell like the 50BL, maybe preferably with gold brass bell.

[FullPedalTrombonist]

In my experience any modular trombone will sound/play different depending how you set it up. Sometimes greatly. But they will sound/play like their brand. If you know what I mean.

All Shires setups I’ve played were different, but felt like Shires.

My advice is to keep what you have and keep trying things out until you feel set on another horn. Look for some good examples of Bach 50xx, try out modular set ups as much as you can and learn what you like.

I haven’t seem to find any two Bach’s that play alike or are even build consistently. But I haven’t looked in a bit. Find a good one and have a tech make it better.

When I was in university I played a Yamaha 822G and a Minick Holton TR180. Two amazing and totally different horns. But they did different things and I used different mouthpieces time suit them. I’m not saying to go on a mouthpiece hunt, but try out what you can there also. It’s fun to learn as long as you don’t get distracted by gear

[thatme]

I have a Rath R9 and love it. Haven’t played a Shires or Edwards, though I’m sure they’re great too. Just need to try some horns. I will say I had a Yamaha 613 before the R9, and while it was okay, I like the R9 a lot more.