In defense of Yamaha

brtnats
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In defense of Yamaha

Post by brtnats »

I like Yamaha. I’ve gravitated towards their instruments and mouthpieces because of their reputation for consistency. I own 3 Yamaha trombones, a set of NSATB recorders for my classroom, a trumpet, and several mouthpieces.

There was a nasty little Facebook thread, and some unkind comments elsewhere, about the inferiority of Yamaha instruments recently, but it got me thinking. I just came back from a music ed conference, and played probably 20 instruments by Getzen, Edwards, Conn-Selmer, Shires Q, and Yamaha. I spent time talking to the Yamaha regional rep about the process of becoming a Yamaha artist or educator. Were they the “best” instruments at the show? No. But they were consistently very very good, easy to play, and reasonably priced for their quality. Did Edwards play better? Yes. $3-4k better? Not in my opinion.

So I started to think about their business models in comparison to equally priced instruments. Yamaha makes almost all of their instruments in Hamamatsu. They’ve built a culture that encourages worker retention, and rewards craftsmanship. The improve their instruments through thousands of silent partnerships with people who play them and make suggestions based on real-world use. They take proven designs ideas from the 88H, 42B, 3B, and 50B, modify them to their design esthetics, and then largely hand-build them in a single factory. And they vertically integrate their lines, with the last “best” model becoming the next “intermediate” model, thus giving mid-level buyers a good experience for their money.

Is that not what Conn and Bach did back in the Elkhart or Mt. Vernon days? Is Yamaha not using that same model of generational craftsmanship that makes us crave those older horns?

I’ve been guilty of the “Yamaha is bland’ statements before too, but that only ever really applied to students I’ve had who quite possibly were just bland, generic players at that point of their growth who happened to have intermediate-level Yamaha horns. I’ve owned horns with a lot more “character” than my Yamaha horns, but that character always came with some liabilities. I don’t get that with Yamaha’s horns. I look at everybody that they’ve signed as major developing and endorsing artists (without financial compensation...Eastman), and those people don’t sound bland either.

So that’s my rant. I think the Yamaha company today is making instruments that play extremely well at a great price point without using shady labor practices. And I’m glad I play them.
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Re: In defense of Yamaha

Post by Gary »

Why so defensive? I don't think Yamaha products take a backseat to anyone or need justifying. That doesn't mean that you might prefer something else, but their quality is unquestionable.
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Re: In defense of Yamaha

Post by MStarke »

Just my little unimportant impression:

I am playing a few different Yamaha mouthpieces and I am convinced that they are of the highest manufacturing quality. The standard line is what it is - very good standard mouthpieces, not very exciting, but reliable to play, good response etc. if they fit your needs.
The signature line also is highest quality and offers some interesting pieces. I personally play the Trudel and the Landgren pieces at the moment, also heard good things on the Yeo.

Certainly the trombones are known to many as good quality beginners' instruments and when "upgrading" many will want to get something else.

My last main teacher - trombone professor at a German music conservatory - plays a Yamaha (large bore) and also plays/played in the Bayreuth Festival Orchestra. One of the greatest orchestral trombone sounds I have ever heard. So there is no reason to say that this cannot be achieved with Yamaha.
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Re: In defense of Yamaha

Post by hyperbolica »

I've been known to say Yamaha is bland or something to that effect. Those comments were based on not-top-of-the-line horns, like 651, 691 and maybe some others. The problem is that I owned them and some old Conn equivalents like 48h, 10h, 32h, 6h, at the same time. When you play them back to back, the Conn sound was more interesting. I also think Shires are maybe a little too ... not sure the word ... robotic sound maybe. I grew up on an 88h and can't get that sound out of my head.

However, I've also owned 891 and a 620 bass, and I really did like those horns. I'm not sure why I sold the 891, it was a beautiful horn, and I got a great deal on it. Probably a perfect trombone. The 620r bass that I owned, I didn't know enough at that point about basses to understand what it was, but it sounded good and played well.

Anyway, if people criticize Yamaha, don't get defensive over it. Criticism always comes from an individual's point of view, and you're not going to change anyone's life experience. It's just that I've played some that didn't compare well against vintage pro horns. Consistency doesn't do me any good. I'm only going to play one. Any differences between almost any horns are 90% behind the bell. It's mostly feel, very little you can record or hear from the front row in a hall.
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Re: In defense of Yamaha

Post by Matt K »

There was a surprising amount of anti-Yamaha sentiment where I went to college - not from professors, but from peers. Bearing in mind this was a decade ago, there were fewer options and the 800 series was relatively young, it honestly isn't terribly surprising. Especially if you were focused on large bore tenors only. You had older models that they didn't sell any more and I seem to recall maybe the 648 being in production at the time and the 8820, which was the only large bore Yamaha a lot of smaller distributors stocked. I owned one throughout highschool and most of college but midway through my undergraduate it became evident that it wasn't the best fit for me, despite my desire to want to make it work to spite the detractors. Its kind of a funny instrument. It's quite similar to a Bach 42 bell section and the slide is sort of similar to an all yellow Conn 88 slide. This leads to a horn that can be a little difficult to control, at least for me (and was the last time I played one maybe 3 years ago). I've played that same model but with a Shires slide ( a friend had the tenon swapped for a Shires bit ) with a more "Bach like" setup with a bass crook and a more closed leadpipe and it plays quite well. That particular frankenhorn plays similar to the 882O (not "0") which was released a few years later with similar specs, although I believe with just a "wide" crook but I don't know that for sure. That model is a *lot* easier for me to control.

Given that a lot of players are singularly focused on this one aspect of playing and that these horns were widely distributed nearly exclusively for a few years, I think there is some legitimate criticism that gets conflated with all instruments coming out of Yamaha; and sentiments like that tend to be difficult to break and so it persists. It is a shame because there are a lot of awesome Yamaha horns, their student models in particular are really fantastic. Their 600 series medium bores are some of my favorite horns of all time, I play one now for ~80% of my playing. And certainly their artists are not uninteresting at all, including Pete when he's on the aforementioned 8820. Unfortunately, the recording no longer seems to be on their website... I have a copy of it somewhere, but there's a 2005 recording of the "Xeno Trombone Quartet" which were obviously all Yamaha artists (Pete Sullivan, Al Kay, Tom Brantley, and Doug Yeo) playing Csardes. Pete's doing the violin solo and the other 3 are reading from the piano score or something to that effect. Totally brilliant performance. BUT, like I said, I do think there is some kernel of truth to the "uninteresting" or "lacking of character" criticism, but it gets very much overblown.

Not to mention they also made the YSL352, and later 354, and while its a great student horn - and can be played professionally - it is on the heavy side. And it's one of the, if not the, most ubiquitous models ever produced. So if the heaviness is not your cup of tea... you'll conflate Yamaha with "inflexible" even though that might only apply to one of their models. For some reason, you don't find the same criticism of say, King horns who have the very odd Tempo which is a heavyish all-nickel bell. So obviously that doesn't explain all of the sentiment but I think it does for some of it.

They also have the problem that initially, some of the horns weren't very good, or at least they were not totally copies of other instruments. Obviously they have taken tremendous strides in manufacturing and quality since the 70s, so I think that much like the aforementioned problem, labels can be sticky and players who were familiar with horns from that times basically conflate "copy" with "poor quality" so the criticism isn't (at least from my experience) that they copy and that is bad... it's that their branding wasn't entirely cohesive. So if you liked your 88 and you tried Yamaha's "copy" of it and it played different... you probably lumped it in with a "bad copy" rather than saying it wasn't a "faithful" copy of it. So again, a kernel of truth from a certain point of view that is very difficult to break out of as a brand.
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Re: In defense of Yamaha

Post by BGuttman »

As 30 year+ player of a 682G (bought new in 1985) I have used my Yamaha in Orchestra, Concert Band, Brass Quintet, pit Band, and even Dixieland Band and Jazz Band. It's all the hon I really needed. Full disclosure, I'm not, never was, and never will be, of a caliber to try out for the Boston Symphony Orchestra, but I have played a lot around my area. I don't think Yamaha deserves any bad rap.
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Re: In defense of Yamaha

Post by castrubone »

I think most people would agree that Yamaha has a very consistently high build quality, particularly for their price. I do a lot of teaching and I see the 882O and 882OR all the time, not to mention the big name players using them. From my vantage they’re very popular horns amongst younger players. Keep in mind the demographic of this website probably skews older and back in the day Yamaha did not have the best reputation prior to the Xeno’s, but nowadays it’s well regarded.
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Re: In defense of Yamaha

Post by Bonearzt »

IMHO, Yamaha does have the most consistent build quality that I witness in horns coming through my shop!
Agreed that initially, Yamaha was on the level of what we find with today's import instruments. But they have made incredible improvements and are now one of the best!

What I have noticed over the years is that with this consistency, there is very little variation between similar horns.
So, if you try two or three of the same model, they will probably play very much the same. Meaning, if you don't care for how they play, you probably won't have any luck with another horn.

Whereas in Bach's case, there are consistent inconsistencies that make each horn play just a little different than the next one. The result being you can try three or four horns and probably find one that plays to your liking!

A lot more could be said, but not necessary!

Eric
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Re: In defense of Yamaha

Post by tbonesullivan »

Usually when I hear people talk about Yamaha, it reminds me of one of the lines from "History of the World Part 1"

"Nice. Nice. Not thrilling, but nice." Not the thing you usually want to hear about a musical instrument company that has been in operation for over a century, and was FOUNDED as a musical instrument company.

I think a lot of it has to do with Japanese culture, and also it reminds me of something that Chuck McAlexander told me when I had my 640 in for some work, which was that Yamaha was always very good at engineering horns, but they recently really had learned how to DESIGN them. They are incredibly consistent, but almost TOO consistent, and a lot of those things about a horn that we really can't describe comes from the imperfectness of the hand manufacturing process. In other words, their horns were too perfect.

However, that did not mean that there were not TOP level pro players that liked them. JJ Johnson went to Yamaha from his King 3B. Bruce Fowler played on YSL-691 and YBl-612 trombones. Phil Teele, LA studio great, played on a Yamaha YBL-612. Today there are even more.

However, one thing I have always noticed about Yamaha is that their marketing is quite understated when compared to other companies out there. They make GREAT Electric guitars and Basses, as well as Motorcycles, but they never bombard the media channels like some other companies do. They really focus more on making incredible products apparently.

I'm currently thinking about picking up another Bass Trombone, as since it has become my primary instrument, I would really like to have a second horn, in case one breaks, or needs to go in for something, and I suddenly have a playing opportunity. I'm fairly certain I'll just get another Yamaha, maybe even, *gasp*, an independent bass trombone. I just think they make incredibly consistent horns, and I don't have to worry about buying one sight unseen.
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Re: In defense of Yamaha

Post by brtnats »

I apologize if I came across as more “defensive” than I meant to be. I just think it’s really interesting that I played 5 Bach 42s, in various configurations, and none of them played as consistently well as the Yamaha horns. But nobody ever levels that “bland” comment at Conn-Selmer. The horn may be all over the place, but at least it’s not bland?

That sentiment just sits weird with me. I’ve come across a lot of anti-Yamaha posts in my years, and I think if you consider what they do, it just doesn’t hold up.
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Re: In defense of Yamaha

Post by ChadA »

I like what Yamaha brings to the marketplace in terms of build consistency, price, and many other things. While my own playing sounds better on other horns than the 882O I used to have, it was not a bad horn at all and works well for others.

The only complaint I have about them is the 10 or so Allegro and Xeno trombones I've seen in the last 5-10 years whose slides red-rotted within 5 years of purchase. To Yamaha's credit, they fixed items still under their warranty period. Hopefully they've sorted out that issue, which I would guess is a raw material issue (combined with instrument cleaning habits) more than a craftsmanship issue.
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Re: In defense of Yamaha

Post by Gary »

This is much ado about nothing.
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Re: In defense of Yamaha

Post by hyperbolica »

Gary wrote: Mon Feb 10, 2020 1:06 pm This is much ado about nothing.
Agreed. I don't get why Yamaha needs defending. And who are you defending them against? People have opinions. Life is more complex than a single answer for everything. What's the issue?
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Re: In defense of Yamaha

Post by tbonesullivan »

ChadA wrote: Mon Feb 10, 2020 1:02 pmThe only complaint I have about them is the 10 or so Allegro and Xeno trombones I've seen in the last 5-10 years whose slides red-rotted within 5 years of purchase. To Yamaha's credit, they fixed items still under their warranty period. Hopefully they've sorted out that issue, which I would guess is a raw material issue (combined with instrument cleaning habits) more than a craftsmanship issue.
I know some techs have felt that it may be that with the modern production techniques, the brass goes through much less work hardening, as now they can draw the tubes on a single pass, instead of several.

Don't know if there would be anyway to really verify that. In the U.S. foundry brass is pretty much the same no matter where you get it from, yet some companies have problems that others don't. Who knows.

One way to avoid red rot: get a model with nickel silver slide outer tubes. Unfortunately most of their current professional line doesn't have that option.
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Re: In defense of Yamaha

Post by Burgerbob »

Bonearzt wrote: Mon Feb 10, 2020 10:06 am

What I have noticed over the years is that with this consistency, there is very little variation between similar horns.
So, if you try two or three of the same model, they will probably play very much the same. Meaning, if you don't care for how they play, you probably won't have any luck with another horn.


Eric
This is true for some of their horns, but not all. I have played maybe a dozen 830 basses at this point, all of which have been completely different monsters. A couple I would have liked to keep, most of which I wouldn't. Just as much variance as Bach but none of them were better than a good Bach. The one I use at works plays very easily and is very even and in tune, but doesn't make a sound or articulation that I like at all.

My euphonium is a Custom 842. It's a pretty good horn. But it's also been quite different than all the other 842s I've played... some have great high Bs, some don't (mine!), as well as just blowing differently.

Also, to the "build quality" portion... Yamaha seems to use a very soft yellow brass on their trombones. Of all the marching band trombones at UCLA when I was teaching the marching band, the Xenos (882 and 830) all had crunched main bell braces, from the main bell brace deforming and letting the slide receiver angle towards the bell. None of these horns were more than 3 years old. None of the 15-30 year old Conn 88Hs or King 4B/Fs had this issue. This isn't to mention the bell and slide dents that seem to come much more easily.

I think Yamaha definitely does a better fit and finish than almost all the other makers- the soldering, buffing, and lacquer all seem to be quite consistent and at a high level. But that doesn't translate to a great horn every time, just a great finishing department.

I think Yamaha makes some good horns, but they don't make very many great ones. If that's good enough for you, then by all means!
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Re: In defense of Yamaha

Post by harrisonreed »

Burgerbob wrote: Mon Feb 10, 2020 2:44 pm
Bonearzt wrote: Mon Feb 10, 2020 10:06 am

What I have noticed over the years is that with this consistency, there is very little variation between similar horns.
So, if you try two or three of the same model, they will probably play very much the same. Meaning, if you don't care for how they play, you probably won't have any luck with another horn.


Eric
Also, to the "build quality" portion... Yamaha seems to use a very soft yellow brass on their trombones. Of all the marching band trombones at UCLA when I was teaching the marching band, the Xenos (882 and 830) all had crunched main bell braces, from the main bell brace deforming and letting the slide receiver angle towards the bell. None of these horns were more than 3 years old. None of the 15-30 year old Conn 88Hs or King 4B/Fs had this issue. This isn't to mention the bell and slide dents that seem to come much more easily.

I think Yamaha definitely does a better fit and finish than almost all the other makers- the soldering, buffing, and lacquer all seem to be quite consistent and at a high level. But that doesn't translate to a great horn every time, just a great finishing department.

I think Yamaha makes some good horns, but they don't make very many great ones. If that's good enough for you, then by all means!

I agree with you that the "legendary" consistency between Yamahas is more legend than fact, having played a brand new Xeno tenor that was a total lemon amidst a bunch of other very good Xenos. But I can't agree with using marching band to talk about build quality on a horn -- that's not fair to any manufacturer. If Yamaha uses a soft brass to get a horn to play or respond a certain way, it's still not their fault that they've got a bunch of kids abusing their instruments on a football field, doing "horns up" snaps and other dumb things that put incredible amounts of centripetal stress onto the instrument. There's no reason to bring an expensive instrument out to march around with. Everything that makes horns sound great relies on a good hall or accoustic space, and that is not a football field. So it's better to march something cheap and overbuilt.
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Re: In defense of Yamaha

Post by Burgerbob »

harrisonreed wrote: Mon Feb 10, 2020 3:34 pm

I agree with you that the "legendary" consistency between Yamahas is more legend than fact, having played a brand new Xeno tenor that was a total lemon amidst a bunch of other very good Xenos. But I can't agree with using marching band to talk about build quality on a horn -- that's not fair to any manufacturer. If Yamaha uses a soft brass to get a horn to play or respond a certain way (sounds like it's on the valve knuckles, if those have valves, since that's a weak point on many horns), it's still not their fault that they've got a bunch of kids abusing their instruments on a football field, doing "horns up" snaps and other dumb things that put incredible amounts of centripetal stress onto the instrument. There's no reason to bring an expensive instrument out to march around with. Everything that makes horns sound great relies on a good hall or accoustic space, and that is not a football field. So it's better to march something cheap and overbuilt.
I only bring it up because it was such a drastic difference between the new Yamahas and the Eastlake 88Hs and 4B/Fs, which were beat up as well, but not falling apart or unplayable from years of abuse.

Like with most programs, it makes more "sense" to buy the more expensive horn sometimes... they have a certain amount of budget to be used, and the same amount of intermediate instruments wouldn't use that budget up. I'm also not sure they would fare any better.
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Re: In defense of Yamaha

Post by harrisonreed »

Ah, budgets...

Yep, I gotcha! Totally understand.

I think that those problems with Yamaha wouldn't be problems if it stayed in a case and only came out indoors.
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Re: In defense of Yamaha

Post by imsevimse »

In the 80ies the Yamaha brand was accused to be bad quality instruments here in Sweden but it was not true. Today they are highly regarded. I have the YSL-891Z, YSL-892ZX, YSL-356R, YSL-321,YSL-322 and the YSL-612R. They are all very well made and very easy to play. At the moment I use the YSL-891Z for jazz in the Johan Stengård Jazz Big Band (see the signature for the link to my facebook page were there are videos from yesterday's concert with the band ) and the YSL-892ZX for classical playing in a trombone quartet. I think I will bring one of the old Yamaha single valve basses to a big band tomorrow. Yamaha are very high quality instruments. You can not go wrong with a Yamaha.

/Tom
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Re: In defense of Yamaha

Post by cmcslide »

I got my first F-attachment horn, a Yamaha 682, when I was in college. Took it with me on a bunch of cruise ship gigs, where it took quite a bit of abuse... I retired that horn for a long time, but now I use it pretty regularly for pop and theater gigs - it has a particular bright sound and light blow that just works better for those things than any other horn that I have.
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Re: In defense of Yamaha

Post by Bach5G »

I’ve stopped worrying about what horns people play.
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Re: In defense of Yamaha

Post by baileyman »

Just listening, it seems Yamaha must tend toward a vowel sound of "aw" through "uh" and "thud". Though I would expect players to influence that a lot.
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Re: In defense of Yamaha

Post by brassmedic »

Interesting discussion. I agree that Yamaha does not need defending. Their quality control is probably better than Conn-Selmer, and yes the finish seems to always be excellent. They are well-built instruments.
Burgerbob wrote: Mon Feb 10, 2020 2:44 pm
Also, to the "build quality" portion... Yamaha seems to use a very soft yellow brass on their trombones. Of all the marching band trombones at UCLA when I was teaching the marching band, the Xenos (882 and 830) all had crunched main bell braces, from the main bell brace deforming and letting the slide receiver angle towards the bell. None of these horns were more than 3 years old. None of the 15-30 year old Conn 88Hs or King 4B/Fs had this issue. This isn't to mention the bell and slide dents that seem to come much more easily.
That would be consistent with my admittedly unscientific observations from working on pro level Yamaha instruments. I have learned not to push too hard when taking dents out of them, because it seems easy to turn the dent into a bulge going the other way. Not so much on their student instruments, though. Those tend to be quite heavy and take a good deal of effort to remove dents.

I have mentioned this before, and I know not everyone agrees with me, but I suspect this soft metal is actually the reason Yamaha trombones don't have the same complexity of sound that other brands have. The well known players who use Yamaha trombones tend to be jazz or commercial players. Not all, but a lot. And I think there's a wider range of what "works" in that kind of music in terms of sound. For example, I think of Rosolino and Watrous, who I think had much different sounds, but they both worked. The player is making the sound that he wants. However, in orchestral playing, it's so much about having a particular tone color, I think that's why Yamaha hasn't caught on more than it has. It's certainly not because they aren't well made and don't play well.

It would be interesting to do deformation testing or something like that on different instrument brands to see exactly what the differences are.
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Re: In defense of Yamaha

Post by sf105 »

One data point, I believe the London Symphony Orchestra section is Yamaha these days. Certainly Peter Moore sounds great on one (but he probably would on anything).
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Re: In defense of Yamaha

Post by WGWTR180 »

New York Philharmonic trombone section: Shires/Yamaha/Shires. Previous to this setup was Edwards/Yamaha/ Shires. They blend just fine. It's about the player.
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Re: In defense of Yamaha

Post by JohnL »

sf105 wrote: Wed Feb 12, 2020 4:09 amCertainly Peter Moore sounds great on one (but he probably would on anything).
Most likely.

We say something like that about a lot of top-tier players, and make the inference that it doesn't matter what they play. But look at it from a different angle. Here's a person who could play pretty much anything and make it work, but he or she has made the conscious choice to play a particular model.
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Re: In defense of Yamaha

Post by ArbanRubank »

FWIW; I play Yamaha "intermediate" models exclusively. I can state with all sincerity and honesty that it isn't the horns that are the limiting factor. It's me. My instructor gave my "intermediate" horns a test drive. I will never be able to get out of them in the rest of my short lifetime what he got out of them in about 10 minutes.

If you are in a top-tier group, or are studying to one day be there, then dress accordingly. But I don't want to be that guy at the ski resort who has boutique gear and yet can't ski commensurate with the quality of his gear and probably never will be able to.
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Re: In defense of Yamaha

Post by mfellows821 »

Here is a thought- If you can sound 2 or 3% or more better on a different (hopefully higher quality) instrument, is it not worth moving up? think of how much time it takes to improve that much with practice! Plus getting a new instrument might make you feel better about your playing and encourage that extra practice
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Re: In defense of Yamaha

Post by brtnats »

mfellows821 wrote: Wed Feb 12, 2020 11:35 am Here is a thought- If you can sound 2 or 3% or more better on a different (hopefully higher quality) instrument, is it not worth moving up? think of how much time it takes to improve that much with practice! Plus getting a new instrument might make you feel better about your playing and encourage that extra practice
Isn’t the inverse equally (if not more) true? You can sound 2 or 3% better on a different instrument, or you can practice with the one you’ve got. I’d rather practice with a known entity than spend my time looking to level up via an equipment change. All the time I could be horn swapping, I’ll be doing long-tones instead, on a Yamaha. Just like Phil Teele did.

I think if anything, this thread has highlighted there’s some interesting bias out there towards this brand. Well, “jazz guys play them but classical don’t” or “amateurs play them and professionals don’t” or “good enough vs. great.” Very interesting, IMHO.
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Re: In defense of Yamaha

Post by Burgerbob »

brtnats wrote: Wed Feb 12, 2020 12:27 pm

Isn’t the inverse equally (if not more) true? You can sound 2 or 3% better on a different instrument, or you can practice with the one you’ve got.
Well, I think you answered your own questions. Pros at the top level need to be picky. Why settle when there are better horns out there? For some players, they are definitely the right horns. But, just like any other brand, they aren't for everyone. Yamaha has an odd part of the market- well made horns at a medium price point. A bit like the Getzen Custom series. Good, but not good enough for most at the top level.
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Re: In defense of Yamaha

Post by ArbanRubank »

The professional music scene is so competitive, a top-tier performer (or wannabe) needs all they edge they can get. The rest of us - probably not so much.

If there is any bias against Yamaha trombones, I wonder if it is more between longitude lines than anything.
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Re: In defense of Yamaha

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mfellows821 wrote: Wed Feb 12, 2020 11:35 am Here is a thought- If you can sound 2 or 3% or more better on a different (hopefully higher quality) instrument, is it not worth moving up? think of how much time it takes to improve that much with practice! Plus getting a new instrument might make you feel better about your playing and encourage that extra practice
And beyond that, contrary to popular belief, the two are not mutually exclusive. One can think about equipment and practice. :horror: It's not like you do long tones for 8 hours a day OR you think about the abstractions of alloy material for 8 hours a day. When you're a/b comparing even two components you probably double the amount of time you're spending doing fundamentals because you're probably the type of person who wants to compare every angle of the component to decide when either is appropriate or if one has an absolute advantage over the other. For that matter, all current evidence that I'm aware of actually supports that type of practice - called intervleaving - as being substantially more effective than blocked practice.
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Re: In defense of Yamaha

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After reading this explanation of interleaving https://academicaffairs.arizona.edu/l2l ... terleaving I know that I use this technique for my daily routine. Not so much for actual music, but I can think of ways to do so.

I loved my modified 882GO but had the opportunity to be fitted for an instrument at Edwards, so I took advantage of that. Otherwise I would have owned an 882GOR.
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Re: In defense of Yamaha

Post by Thrawn22 »

There is only one Yamaha horn I've played and, for lack of a better word, liked. That was the Doug Yeo bassbone.

Beyond that, all Yamaha horns are is copies of American horns and combining those various parts into something they claim to be innovative or original. I don't like Bach, but I'd buy a Bach before a Yamaha.


I have a couple of friends who play Yamaha and swear by them. And good for them. Its just not my cup of tea.
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Re: In defense of Yamaha

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Thrawn22 wrote: Wed Feb 12, 2020 2:59 pm Beyond that, all Yamaha horns are is copies of American horns and combining those various parts into something they claim to be innovative or original. I don't like Bach, but I'd buy a Bach before a Yamaha.
The early Yamahas were definitely copies or at least inspired by American horns. But, the modern instruments definitely aren't copies. Case in point, the Yamaha semi closed wrap.
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Re: In defense of Yamaha

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Thrawn22 wrote: Wed Feb 12, 2020 2:59 pm Beyond that, all Yamaha horns are is copies of American horns and combining those various parts into something they claim to be innovative or original. I don't like Bach, but I'd buy a Bach before a Yamaha.
How different does a horn have to be to be not considered a copy to you? And for that matter, how does that definition not apply to any of the contemporary American manufacturers?

I can think of at least a half dozen exceptions... all the 600 series medium bore series I mentioned earlier have specs that even on paper have obvious differences to any present, stock production instrument that I am aware of being equipped with an 8.5" lightweight, one-piece bell and a medium bore slide. (The 88 bell is different and aside from that, the medium bore slide is a "special order", not to mention the tubing and bore are different shapes and sizes) The 356 variants all have 500/525 slides and predated the BAC model by nearly a decade, the only other stock model I am aware of having that particular bore size, let alone any other differences in their design.

Beyond that, all of the F attachment wraps which are not 'open' for Yamahas are "semi-closed", a design feature that was copied on some clones of Yamaha instruments (e.g. the older Jupiter 636 models). The closest similarity that predates Yamaha having this wrap is the King closed wrap models and only because it has two smaller loops, when you examine them they aren't really all that much similar. I'm not sure who copied who, but the "closed wrap" you find on Bach 42B and Conn 88s bear an incredibly strong resemblance to one another. As do the open wraps. Really, if anything, Yamaha has been one of the more creative manufacturers in the previous half-century on this front between the semi-closed wrap and the convertible bass design on the 622 (and 822) you mentioned previously.

If you're talking about components... as mentioned above, this really isn't applicable either - at least now. Many of their bells are made with a plasma welded. I'm not aware of any other company that employs that technique to make bells. One user here awhile ago suggested that might be why these bells are "uninteresting" - but point being that they aren't necessarily copies. For that matter, Yamaha has patents on two valves which have never been released on another horn. First on the Bousfield in the 90s and on a Japan exclusive Xeno (the V-Valve).

The 354 is a bit of an exception but I can't remember what it was copied from. Being a student horn, they're all pretty similar so the extent to which that is even applicable is questionable in my opinion.
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Re: In defense of Yamaha

Post by Burgerbob »

Thrawn22 wrote: Wed Feb 12, 2020 2:59 pm Beyond that, all Yamaha horns are is copies of American horns and combining those various parts into something they claim to be innovative or original. I don't like Bach, but I'd buy a Bach before a Yamaha.
That's not quite fair to the modern company. Yamaha works with many artists developing their horns.
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Re: In defense of Yamaha

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They aren't copying any longer. They did make a great copy of the 88H back in the 80s and 90s though. Way better than the ones being made in the states at that time.
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Re: In defense of Yamaha

Post by PaulT »

I went to a band instrument trade show earlier this winter and was surprised by how crappy many of the slides were on new, expensive trombones. Except for the Yamaha slides which smooth and silent from top of the line to the bottom. The condition of the slides may have been due to the care provided by the exhibitors or due to more frequent handling, but what was, was. I was very unimpressed with the quality of some horns that should have been impressive.
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Re: In defense of Yamaha

Post by Bach5G »

One might have a look at D Yeo’s account of the development of his signature horn and Yamaha’s willingness to try new things, particularly when compared with Bach. On his website, I think.
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Re: In defense of Yamaha

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PaulT wrote: Wed Feb 12, 2020 5:00 pm I went to a band instrument trade show earlier this winter and was surprised by how crappy many of the slides were on new, expensive trombones. Except for the Yamaha slides which smooth and silent from top of the line to the bottom. The condition of the slides may have been due to the care provided by the exhibitors or due to more frequent handling, but what was, was. I was very unimpressed with the quality of some horns that should have been impressive.
I'd say it's very likely the exhibitors. I've never played a horn at a WWBW booth that had a smooth slide, for example.
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Re: In defense of Yamaha

Post by ArbanRubank »

In the past several years I have bought three brand-new Yamahas. I was amazed at their condition; clean as a whistle inside and totally gig-ready right out of their cases!

Prior to this, I had bought two brand-new Kanstuls. I believe Kanstuls are good horns. But it took me about 1/2 hour of work on their slides to get the crap out and make them play-ready.
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Re: In defense of Yamaha

Post by Posaunus »

Thrawn22 wrote: Wed Feb 12, 2020 2:59 pm Beyond that, all Yamaha horns are is copies of American horns and combining those various parts into something they claim to be innovative or original.
As pointed out by others, your viewpoint is at the very least way out of date (at least 20 years?) and at best simply incorrect. Yamaha makes fine instruments (and mouthpieces), some of them absolutely first class.
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Re: In defense of Yamaha

Post by brtnats »

Burgerbob wrote: Wed Feb 12, 2020 12:44 pm
brtnats wrote: Wed Feb 12, 2020 12:27 pm

Isn’t the inverse equally (if not more) true? You can sound 2 or 3% better on a different instrument, or you can practice with the one you’ve got.
Well, I think you answered your own questions. Pros at the top level need to be picky. Why settle when there are better horns out there? For some players, they are definitely the right horns. But, just like any other brand, they aren't for everyone. Yamaha has an odd part of the market- well made horns at a medium price point. A bit like the Getzen Custom series. Good, but not good enough for most at the top level.
I’m not saying I was thinking about you when I wrote that, but your YouTube channel may have crossed my mind... :pant:
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Re: In defense of Yamaha

Post by brassmedic »

Matt K wrote: Wed Feb 12, 2020 4:27 pm
Beyond that, all of the F attachment wraps which are not 'open' for Yamahas are "semi-closed", a design feature that was copied on some clones of Yamaha instruments (e.g. the older Jupiter 636 models). The closest similarity that predates Yamaha having this wrap is the King closed wrap models and only because it has two smaller loops, when you examine them they aren't really all that much similar. I'm not sure who copied who, but the "closed wrap" you find on Bach 42B and Conn 88s bear an incredibly strong resemblance to one another. As do the open wraps. Really, if anything, Yamaha has been one of the more creative manufacturers in the previous half-century on this front between the semi-closed wrap and the convertible bass design on the 622 (and 822) you mentioned previously.
I'm not understanding the distinction you're making between "closed" and "semi-closed". Bach and Conn closed wrap trombones have two small radius crooks and one large radius crook. Don't Yamaha closed wraps also have two small radius crooks and one large radius crook? I think the reason Conn changed to the wrap that they now use is because the two long straight tubing sections allow for an E pull. And I'm guessing that's why Bach used a similar design. I don't see the advantage of doing it differently; actually seems like a regression to me. Am I missing something?
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Re: In defense of Yamaha

Post by harrisonreed »

Yamaha had an innovative wrap style with multiple tuning slides. One you left tuned, the other was for E pull. The king wrap also does this.

Yamaha wishfully called it a semi-open wrap or some such.
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Re: In defense of Yamaha

Post by brassmedic »

harrisonreed wrote: Thu Feb 13, 2020 12:48 am Yamaha had an innovative wrap style with multiple tuning slides. One you left tuned, the other was for E pull. The king wrap also does this.

Yamaha wishfully called it a semi-open wrap or some such.
Do you really get an E pull with that short loop, though?
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Re: In defense of Yamaha

Post by harrisonreed »

On the 3BF, yes. Never tested it on the Yamaha. They said it was for E pull, but I doubt it makes it.
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Re: In defense of Yamaha

Post by Pre59 »

Burgerbob wrote: Wed Feb 12, 2020 12:44 pm Yamaha has an odd part of the market- well made horns at a medium price point. A bit like the Getzen Custom series. Good, but not good enough for most at the top level.
I had an issue with a top level horn, a Rath R10. A line of solder that went about a third of the way around the tuning slide was missing, but strangely had been lacquered over. So it failed at least twice on quality checks. I got it sorted, but the attitude from the dealer and Rath itself was not one that I would of expected. The lacquer around the collar pipe started to thin very quickly as well.

Back in the day when Trace Elliot was a premier leading brand of bass amplification, I bought an amp from them that they knew had a faulty component, but didn't order a recall because it might have damaged their reputation. It let me down while being played with an on-stage band, at the start of what could have been a new revenue stream.

Top level is a nice idea, but isn't always a fact IMO.
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Re: In defense of Yamaha

Post by BGuttman »

harrisonreed wrote: Thu Feb 13, 2020 2:40 am On the 3BF, yes. Never tested it on the Yamaha. They said it was for E pull, but I doubt it makes it.
It doesn't. I have a 682, and I tried.
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