King 4b vs Conn 88h

Post Reply
MStarke
Posts: 501
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2019 4:33 pm
Location: Germany
Contact:

King 4b vs Conn 88h

Post by MStarke »

Hi all,

this has certainly been discussed before, but I would appreciate some quick Input as I may have to make a very fast buying decision.

From an objective point of view (so without saying that all Kings are jazz horns) - how would you compare the 4b to the 88h or 88ht?

What are the pros and cons?
Sound, responsiveness, intonation, suitable to settings such as orchestra, Wind Band, brass Ensemble...

Thanks for your Inputs!
Markus Starke
https://www.mst-studio-mouthpieces.com/

Alto: Conn 35h, Kanstul, Weril
Tenor: 3x Conn 6h, Blessing medium, Elkhart 88H, modern 88HT, Greenhoe Conn 88HT, Kruspe, Heckel, Piering replica
Bass: Conn 112h, Greenhoe, Conn 60h
walldaja
Posts: 418
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:51 pm
Location: New Albany, Ohio

Re: King 4b vs Conn 88h

Post by walldaja »

I assume you're comparing a King 4-B/F to the 88. I like that the lever to actuate the valve is behind the bell brace unlike almost all other horns that place it in front of the brace. Took me a while to get used to having my thumb only on the valve lever and not holding that brace. The King probably has a nickle-silver outer slide tube as opposed to brass like the 88. That could make it a little brighter. I know you can get either open wrap or closed wrap with the 88, not sure about the 4B, I've only seen closed there.
Dave

2014 Shires Q30GR with 2CL
1982 King 607F with 13CL
Yamaha 421G Bass with Christian Lindberg 2CL / Bach 1 1/2G
Bach Soloist with 13CL
1967 Olds Ambassador with 10CL
1957 Besson 10-10
Jean Baptiste EUPCOMS with Stork 4
User avatar
paulyg
Posts: 684
Joined: Thu May 17, 2018 12:30 pm

Re: King 4b vs Conn 88h

Post by paulyg »

Different strokes...

I'd say an 88H is marginally more versatile than a 4B. The 2B and 3B are jazz horns... the 4B is not. The 4B has more chips riding on the "Symphony Orchestra Sound" than the 88H does.

88Hs from Elkhart tend to hold value better than 4Bs.
Paul Gilles
Aerospace Engineer & Trombone Player
User avatar
hyperbolica
Posts: 2792
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2018 7:31 am

Re: King 4b vs Conn 88h

Post by hyperbolica »

I've played both, but I'm a definite 88h guy. I think the Conn has just a little more flexibility and warmth. I would think the 4b is closer to the 88ht, which is closer to the Elkhart than the current 88h. The differences between them are going to be really subtle, but I'd probably say the 4b's strength would be concert band, and the 88h(t) strength would be primarily chamber music. I don't think you'd go wrong with either horn, I just feel like I can express a greater range on the 88h.
User avatar
BGuttman
Posts: 5897
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2018 7:19 am
Location: Cow Hampshire

Re: King 4b vs Conn 88h

Post by BGuttman »

A 4B does tend to be a bit brighter than an 88H. There are two "flavors": earlier ones had the trigger paddle so that you hold the horn with the webbing between thumb and forefinger. Later ones are more like everybody else's.

I also felt that my King 4B was perfect for Concert Band. Needed to tone it down a bit for symphony. But there have been some great players in Cleveland that played Kings in that orchestra.
Bruce Guttman
Merrimack Valley Philharmonic Orchestra
"Almost Professional"
castrubone
Posts: 225
Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2018 10:55 am

Re: King 4b vs Conn 88h

Post by castrubone »

I recently tried a new straight King 4B against my 88HT. The 4B was a bigger sound and felt more open. "Bach-like" you could say. The bell seemed fairly thin, but it's bigger than average (8 5/8" i think) so it balances out. Definitely would work in an orchestra no problem. The Conn is more nimble and colorful with a compact/directional sound. Easier to play. Both were very responsive.
MStarke
Posts: 501
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2019 4:33 pm
Location: Germany
Contact:

Re: King 4b vs Conn 88h

Post by MStarke »

Thanks everyone for the very quick responses!

I could have had a good deal on a 4B F, but seems like someone else was quicker.
They are not very common here, definitely much less than the 88h.
But somehow I always considered getting one.

Let's see what comes up next ;-)

Anyway I am lucky that I didn't have to tell my wife about the next trombone I bought.
Markus Starke
https://www.mst-studio-mouthpieces.com/

Alto: Conn 35h, Kanstul, Weril
Tenor: 3x Conn 6h, Blessing medium, Elkhart 88H, modern 88HT, Greenhoe Conn 88HT, Kruspe, Heckel, Piering replica
Bass: Conn 112h, Greenhoe, Conn 60h
henryTbone
Posts: 11
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 4:52 am
Location: Karlsbad / Germany

Re: King 4b vs Conn 88h

Post by henryTbone »

wow, i got a nice deal on a King 4B myself.
Considering the number of King 4B offers here in Germany it might have been the one you where looking for.
Was it offered by a dealer in 76307 Karlsbad/Germany ? If so.....sorry, i am the one who got it.
Send me a PM if you still want to try the horn.

Best Regards
Heinrich
imsevimse
Posts: 1408
Joined: Sun Apr 29, 2018 10:43 am
Location: Sweden

Re: King 4b vs Conn 88h

Post by imsevimse »

I'm late to this discussion. I haven't liked any of the few King 4B I've played. It could be I've never had a chance to play a good one. Unfortunately I have not come across any player here who play a 4B. The few I've seen have been in shops. Conn 88h on the contrary turn up all the time and I like the ones I've tried very much.
I have two Conn 88h's, one is an Aberline from 1979 and one is an Elkhart from 1955. Both are great but different. As a collector I jumped the 4B's since we never become friends and instead the Benge brand cought my interest. They are rather King like. It is the path the Kings should have taken instead of involving the Benge name since they use King and Conn parts in a good mix. They have been said to be "the best of Conn and King". I have a great Benge 190C that I'm pleased with.

/Tom
tbonesullivan
Posts: 1461
Joined: Tue Jul 02, 2019 9:06 am
Location: New Jersey
Contact:

Re: King 4b vs Conn 88h

Post by tbonesullivan »

A king 4B is great, if it's the horn for you, the same with the 88H. It is definitely a different animal, with the nickel silver slide, with a very ROUND end bow on the slide. The tuning slide I think is equally round, and usually they have yellow brass bells.

I have considered picking up a straight 4B for years as a solo/first horn, but i've never been able to find one in the condition or configuration I want.
David S. - daveyboy37 from TTF
Bach 39, LT36B, 42BOF & 42T, King 2103 / 3b, Kanstul 1570CR & 1588CR, Yamaha YBL-612 RII, YBL-822G & YBL-830, B&H Eb Tuba, Sterling 1056GHS Euphonium,
Livingston Symphony Orchestra NJ - Trombone
User avatar
Kingfan
Posts: 1133
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2018 8:32 pm
Location: Cleveland, OH

Re: King 4b vs Conn 88h

Post by Kingfan »

Had a 4B since 1972 or 1973. The Cleveland Orchestra was using them at the time. When I went to Baldwin-Wallace Conservatory of Music in 1975, everybody was on a 4B, 88H, or Bach 42B.
I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are still missing! :D
Greg Songer
King 606, King 3B-F: DE LT101/LTD/D3
King 4B-F: Bach 5G Megatone gold plated
King 2107 bass: DE MB109/MB J/J8 King
Posaunus
Posts: 3424
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:54 pm
Location: California

Re: King 4b vs Conn 88h

Post by Posaunus »

imsevimse wrote: Tue Feb 11, 2020 1:51 pm ... the Benge brand cought my interest. They are rather King like. It is the path the Kings should have taken instead of involving the Benge name since they use King and Conn parts in a good mix. They have been said to be "the best of Conn and King". I have a great Benge 190C that I'm pleased with.
/Tom
The Benge 165F, as described previously in The Trombone Forum and TromboneChat, is pretty much a "souped up" King 4B-F. Better than any King-branded orchestral trombone I've tried, it also makes an interesting comparison to a Conn 88H. [Though I still prefer my vintage 1972 88H.] The Benge 190 is reputed to be even better than the 165F, though I haven't played one. :idk:
jtbandmusic
Posts: 24
Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2018 3:00 pm

Re: King 4b vs Conn 88h

Post by jtbandmusic »

I have played two Elkhart 88Hs for a good long time, and one 4B for a much shorter time. To me, the 88h was easy to color; I could make it mellow out, or get bright, cut through when needed, or buried in the background. The King had a great slide; the Conn slides were ... okay. The King has a good sound, but for me it was only ONE sound, bright and cutting through, at least at greater volume. For me, the flexibility made the difference.

John Thompson
YSL646
Besson 10-10
Conn 60H
chromebone
Posts: 284
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2018 4:29 pm

Re: King 4b vs Conn 88h

Post by chromebone »

There are no Conn parts whatsoever on a Benge. The Benge was designed while King was still independent of UMI and Conn. If anything, modern Conns have a King/Benge rotor valve on them. Some later UMI 190s have a nickel cased valve that was a compromise towards using the same valve on the 88H.

As for judging a 4B, you have to take into account that the 4B has a number of different flavors: The early Yellow brass and Sterling silver with the older ergonomics, the earlier rose belled versions and the UMI versions with a rose bell, Silver Sonic 100th anniversary and more modern ergonomics. Also, some 4bs have annealed bells during the later 80’s through the 90’s according to Chuck Ward. Not sure if they are still made that way. The bottom line, they are all different from each other.
imsevimse
Posts: 1408
Joined: Sun Apr 29, 2018 10:43 am
Location: Sweden

Re: King 4b vs Conn 88h

Post by imsevimse »

chromebone wrote: Thu Feb 13, 2020 8:11 am There are no Conn parts whatsoever on a Benge.
If you look at the similarities what comes from King is the slide the color, the sound and feel. What comes from Conn is the way you manouver the valve. King has a button but Benge has that very Conn like lever which I find much better. The Benge design of open wrap valve is neither King nor Conn from that time. The Benge bell is annealed which at that time was a new thing, neither King nor Conn had that. Benge was it's own thing but definitely more King. A next generation King is how they could have been marketed.

/Tom
Post Reply

Return to “Instruments”