Valve Recommendations

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walldaja
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Valve Recommendations

Post by walldaja »

Looking for opinions on best type of valve for Bb/F horn. Looking for insight in both function, reliability, durability, and maintenance. My only experience is with rotary vavlves.

Thanks in advance.

Tried the search function but kept coming up empty.
Dave

2014 Shires Q30GR with 2CL
1982 King 607F with 13CL
Yamaha 421G Bass with Christian Lindberg 2CL / Bach 1 1/2G
Bach Soloist with 13CL
1967 Olds Ambassador with 10CL
1957 Besson 10-10
Jean Baptiste EUPCOMS with Stork 4
castrubone
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Re: Valve Recommendations

Post by castrubone »

What type of horn do you have? Standard rotors will get the job done most of the time.
Posaunus
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Re: Valve Recommendations

Post by Posaunus »

Nothing wrong with rotary valves. (Possible exception: the undersized valve/F-tubing on older Bach 42B.) Some of the newer rotary valve designs are terrific – a bit more open and smoother, possibly more robust). But many of us play on old classics and are satisfied with the valves. Probably very few of us have tried all the available flavors, so instead we'll tell you the one or two that we like (or what we dislike). :idk:
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harrisonreed
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Re: Valve Recommendations

Post by harrisonreed »

As opposed to piston valves?
Posaunus
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Re: Valve Recommendations

Post by Posaunus »

harrisonreed wrote: Sat Feb 29, 2020 4:06 pm As opposed to piston valves?
Probably as opposed to axial valves (à la Thayer)
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harrisonreed
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Re: Valve Recommendations

Post by harrisonreed »

:???: :eek: :shock:

I'd stick to stock designs. If a horn comes with a certain valve, that's probably the best valve for that design. Swapping out a valve can ruin the entire horn, because there is a synergy between components.
FullPedalTrombonist
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Re: Valve Recommendations

Post by FullPedalTrombonist »

It depends on how you play, what sound you want and can produce, what horn it is or how it’s spec’d. Some valves are meant to feel the same as an open horn, some are solid, some are brazed tubes as the core, some are designed to have some resistance.

What a horn comes with is part of the design. Things can be improved, but you never know if a high end valve will make a horn better or take everything out of balance.

Overall I think a pretty standard rotor is the easiest in all respects. Once they get to funky shapes with more surface area or super tight and precise tolerances or more delicate linkages the more often you have to take care of it of the more little things you have to keep in order. That’s not a bad thing, though. It can be helpful to be mindful of your instruments. This should be done with all parts of a trombone anyway, but if I get a little lazy with a standard valve it’ll still work. The trade off is putting maintenance off for too long because it still works then when it stops it’s a bigger issue than just a few drops of oil can fix.
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Matt K
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Re: Valve Recommendations

Post by Matt K »

For function, reliability, and durability... pretty much anything commercially available will do what you need. I would recommend avoiding donor horns from the conterfeit valves like the Hagmanns from the cheaper of the Chinese contras.

As far as maintenance, rotors tend to be mildly easier to maintain than other valves. Really though, you should do the same things to them as any of the other valves, including more-or-less daily oiling which is really not that onerous of a requirement. Also probably a good idea to have it cleaned professionally every few years as well as the occasional rinsing with water. But you'll hear reports of people who haven't oiled their rotor in 30+ years and it still "works fine". That's definitely a surprisingly popular perspective and certainly not my experience but putting $.02 of oil on my instrument doesn't offend my sensibilities so ymmv.

As far as what will play best, that's an entirely different story. Going to largely be based on the rest of the instrument and your preference, two things which are very difficult to ascertain over the internet. There are some generalities you can make such as 42 style horns (one piece, modestly heavy bells) do tend to play nice with the more "open" valves such as Thayers or Hagmann... but the best 42s I've played all had rotors. That ultimately boils down to preference. Some things are less practical because of physical limitations, for example, a Conn 88 has a narrow slide, which makes Thayer valves pretty awkward to physically utilize. There are some players out there who can make it work though.
walldaja
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Re: Valve Recommendations

Post by walldaja »

Thanks for your responses! Both of my F attachments have rotors and they get the job done. Having never used anything else I was just curious. I don't notice any problem playing a C on either horn either with or without the trigger.
Dave

2014 Shires Q30GR with 2CL
1982 King 607F with 13CL
Yamaha 421G Bass with Christian Lindberg 2CL / Bach 1 1/2G
Bach Soloist with 13CL
1967 Olds Ambassador with 10CL
1957 Besson 10-10
Jean Baptiste EUPCOMS with Stork 4
JBone
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Re: Valve Recommendations

Post by JBone »

Thayer has the most even response across the valved and open sides of the horn, but seems to dramatically affect the feel of all of the horn when compared to a gooseneck or a single valved instrument.

Trubore has, for me, the best feeling open side of the horn (ie. closest to a traditional gooseneck), and the valve side is pretty satisfying, though nothing like a thayer. The other valves (dual bore rotor, Hagmann progressive bore) that also aim at maintaining a bit of a taper in the valve itself are also pretty satisfying.

Standard rotors are very efficient, and may affect either the valved or open sides of the horn in ways that you personally prefer over an open gooseneck or a fully open valve like a Thayer.

As to maintenance: rotors will last a long time between oilings, axials require distinctly more frequent oiling, and the Trubore falls somewhere in the middle. Then again, there's no big downside to oiling more frequently than strictly necessary, and it protects your investment, so I wouldn't worry too much about minimum maintenance schedules.
Dennis
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Re: Valve Recommendations

Post by Dennis »

Posaunus wrote: Sat Feb 29, 2020 3:27 pm Nothing wrong with rotary valves. (Possible exception: the undersized valve/F-tubing on older Bach 42B.)
The valve tubing on the 42 is not undersize: it's 0.562 (the same size as the 36B and Conn's 88H).

The problem is the valve itself: the 42 is basically a 36 with a larger slide and bell flare trimmed to 8 ½" rather than 8". The slide tenon was changed out for the 45/50 bass tenon. (Fun fact: a model 36 tuning slide is interchangeable with a model 42 tuning slide.)

They didn't change out the valve or the gooseneck, though. The valve ports were at bore for a 36, but they are undersized for the 42's 0.547 slide.
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hyperbolica
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Re: Valve Recommendations

Post by hyperbolica »

I really like the Kanstul CR valves, but as a practical matter, I'd probably use instrument innovations valves or Trubore.

Depending on the horn, the Shires Duo bore is a nice valve for a lighter horn. But, you really need to play it for yourself. The safest bet in my mind would be a large diameter rotor.

You have other practical considerations like price, availability, installation cost, ability to fit in a case, lever throw, maintenance, etc.
tbonesullivan
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Re: Valve Recommendations

Post by tbonesullivan »

walldaja wrote: Sat Feb 29, 2020 5:24 pm Thanks for your responses! Both of my F attachments have rotors and they get the job done. Having never used anything else I was just curious. I don't notice any problem playing a C on either horn either with or without the trigger.
Both of those horns have well-designed rotors and valve wraps. I don't think you will see any type of extreme improvement by changing them out.

As others have stated, a lot of the want for a "better valve" came from the Bach 42 trombone, which was originally a Bach 45 mixed with a Bach 36, because Bach needed a .547" bore trombone with an 8 1/2 inch bell to compete with the 88h. The Bach 36 had actually been Vincent Bach's "ideal symphonic trombone".

For some reason Bach doesn't want to put a proper "M" neck pipe or larger better ported rotary into their standard 42. Probably to keep people buying the more expensive models with "fancy" valves.
David S. - daveyboy37 from TTF
Bach 39, LT36B, 42BOF & 42T, King 2103 / 3b, Kanstul 1570CR & 1588CR, Yamaha YBL-612 RII, YBL-822G & YBL-830, B&H Eb Tuba, Sterling 1056GHS Euphonium,
Livingston Symphony Orchestra NJ - Trombone
Carolus
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Re: Valve Recommendations

Post by Carolus »

There are many excellent valves out there that get the job done. However, no amount of reading opinions of others and technical specifications will tell you what is best for you. The only way is to try them out and then you may figure out the one you like the most. Please keep in mind that the valve is only one aspect of the horn and in itself should not dictate your choice of horn. In case of double valve bass the role of the valve choice is obviously larger.

If you choose a horn that plays great "open", has a quality valve (many good ones have been mentioned in this thread) and has good ergonomics then the chances are that you will be happy with it. Different valves may require adjustments to how you blow to keep the open and valve notes to speak evenly but this is something that can be practiced.

My personal preference is Hagmann valves, I like the way the horn feels the same with and without the valve engaged. For me the action of axial valves like Thayers feels wrong, even if I know many people love theirs.
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Trav1s
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Re: Valve Recommendations

Post by Trav1s »

Big Rotax fan here - I have one installed on my Conn 79H and love how it plays. While at ITF 2018 I played Rath and Latzsch horns with Rotax valves and was greeted with the same response as the Rotax on my 79H. It is very little maintenance - oil it occasionally and forget about it.

I also tried many other horns while at ITF and still come back to standard valve over other designs. I like the Greenhorn valve and continue to be impressed by the Yamaha valve used on Xeno horns. The Shires valve used on the Q series is also very impressive.
Travis B.
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1961 24H - LT101/C+/D2
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dukesboneman
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Re: Valve Recommendations

Post by dukesboneman »

I recently had valve replaced on my 42BO with the Instrument Innovations "Olsen" Valve.
Low maintenance, very open. My "F" side of the horn feels as open as the open horn. and
priced very affordable and they are so wonderful to work with. Incredible customer service
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