Edwards Trombone pillars

[aasavickas]

I have a couple Edwards trombones with the pillar gizmo. I'm sure plenty of folks are skeptical and I was too. It clearly makes a difference to the feel for the player and probably makes a difference to the audience though maybe not as dramatic a difference as it feels to the player. Feel to the player is important even if it does not translate to dramatic changes in the sound in the room. To me, it makes about as much of a difference as changing out a leadpipe. I'm not particularly interested in a debate about the nonsense snake oil musicians get into. In this case at least, I think it makes a difference to the feel.

I have had the horns for a while and never really bothered playing around with the pillars in them. The horns play fine without them but i'm curious to try them out and maybe dial them in a bit. There are so many options between the different metals and sizes and directions and holes, I'm curious if anyone has a decent shorthand description of the general tendencies of the different metals, directions, and holes used.

It would save me some time to have a clue. Similar to with mouthpieces. I know that a smaller one might make higher stuff a bit easier but might make lower stuff harder, that kind of thing.

The main changes seem to be how partials slot and how the articulations speak, maybe a little about how the horn resonates too.

It might be useful to adjust them based on the room, so knowing what I'm trying to zero in would help.


Thanks

[norbie2018]

If you search the forum this has been discussed. Those discussions have specific examples of pillar usage.

[GBP]

Both my Edwards basses have harmonic pillars. The best thing to do is find a person with a good ear listen to you play and just experiment

[RichC]

The attached PDF is what I had received from Edwards

Scan.pdf

[sterb225]

I played my t-396 for over a year without any pillars installed. After watching a few videos on YouTube of Christian dialing in a horn for a pro player with the pillars I started a week long process of adding and subtracting various pillars until I came up with one that felt best from my side of the horn. For me it was about playability, the subtle differences on the audience side will never be heard in the types of playing I do, so I really didn't take audience side into account at all. The pillars have a very noticeable effect (don't forget that the same pillar in the same hole, can be rotated 180 degrees).

[whitbey]

I have just one spot for one pillar by the valve on my Edwards. Two of my horns are that way.

I was skeptical. But it made the horn play easier.

Then my wife who plays the radio told me how much better it sounded.

[ZacharyThornton]

The attached PDF is what I had received from EdwardsScan.pdf

That is a very old type up they did. We have learned a lot more about them and have some more useful info. Email me if you want me to send you the updated .pdf.

[ZacharyThornton]

Actually I think I will post the pdf here. I think a lot of people would use it.

[Bonearzt]

I was skeptical for a LONG time, until last summer I had a chance to spend a little time playing around with them.

I was fortunate to have Jared Lantzy guide me through the different options and listen with a good ear! Honestly, to me the changes were very slightly noticeable from my side of the horn, but VERY noticeable to Jared out in front.

So I would suggest having a friend with a good trombone ear out front to listen along with you to make the changes depending on what you both hear and want to change.

Zach, please do post here!!!

Eric

[ZacharyThornton]

I just need to figure out how to post it... I will work on it when I get in tomorrow!

[harrisonreed]

My thoughts on the pillars.

They all affect the perceived blow and resistance on the horn. The copper color one seems to deaden the upper harmonics in any given pitch. The silver colored one seems to let the upper harmonics ring a bit more. I recommend starting with the copper pillars because they seem to have a more pronounced effect, and the T-396A at least is already a bright and very open horn. Start with the "1" pillars, since these definitely have the biggest effect. The long pillars are a different animal. More on those later.

I believe that the effect is based on torque -- the farther out the pillar is sticking from the bridge, the more torque it has. Also, regardless of where the weight goes, adding a copper pillar anywhere seems to solidify the upper partials. Without it, the upper partials require a precise attack. With the extra mass, there is more stability and a wider slot to aim for. Too much mass ruins everything. Try putting a pillar in each hole -- it's hilarious.

The craziest part to me is how the three slots in the bridge seem to differ. And they don't really tell you how each one might change the response when you buy a horn. I didn't get anything, anyways.

The hole nearest the bell changes the overall feeling and response the most for me. Try putting the copper "1" facing up towards the leadpipe in the bell hole. For me, this widens the size of each partial slot, so that the horn takes all the air you can give it and feels almost like a Thayer instrument. It's a mistake to think that putting the pillar in the opposite way, towards the bell, has a 100% opposite effect. No, that mass is still there. Removing the pillar has the opposite effect. Putting it in towards the bell does feel like you get the bell really responsive and vibrating freely, but with a darker, more compact sound.

The middle hole adds stability to the slot, for me. So in a given partial if the slot is like a ditch, with the copper "1" pillar in the middle hole facing up towards the tuning slide, the slot feels like a ditch that is miles deep, with cliffs instead of slopes on either side. Also, this setup seems to make the sound project out and away from me. Again, reversing the pillar is not the opposite -- removing it is. If the pillar is towards the bell, the slot feels very defined, but the projection is lessened. I feel like I can hear myself much better with it towards the bell.

I don't like messing with the hole near the neckpipe.

My goal is not so much to change how the horn sounds or plays, so much as to fix the horn for the room I'm playing in. I want to get the most I can out of any situation for the amount of perceived effort I'm putting in. I want the approach to the horn to be the same, no matter what room I'm in. I think we all do things differently in a tiny dead practice room than we do on the concert stage. It all comes down to the room. I feel like if the horn is giving you the right amount of feedback and the right feel for the room you're in, you will play and sound like yourself. Here are some setups that I like:

Copper "1" in the middle hole facing towards the tuning slide. Feels very stable. Lots of projection. Try it out on Mahler. For the concert hall. Pairs well with a mouthpiece with a deep cup and open throat.

Copper "1" in the middle hole facing towards bell flare. Sometimes this one is good when you need projection and stability but you can't really hear yourself during full ensemble passages due to the room, or maybe because of the ensemble. Pairs well with a less "orchestral" mouthpiece.

Copper "1" in bell hole facing down towards the flare. This setup feels great. Bell is responsive, sound is dark and compact. Doesn't project that well. Try it on some lyrical etudes. I have moved away from this setup, which used to be my only setup, for large ensemble playing because what sounds and feels great to me is not projecting enough or into the audience, especially after switching to a shallower mouthpiece. I would use this in the practice room or other small room with poor accoustics, especially if rehearsing with a small ensemble. You can back off, you get feedback from the horn instead of the room, and feel like you get more for your perceived effort.

Copper "1" in bell hole facing up towards the tuning slide. Feels like a Thayer horn. I am increasingly leaving a pillar in this configuration, because it provides the best feeling of an open, resonant horn. I would use this in any large, open room with lots of wood and reverb/feedback, where a resonating horn feels great and the feedback guides your playing - this lets you back off, and get more for your perceived effort. However, I find myself switching it over to the bell side (down) in small rooms, especially if it's like a BQ rehearsal in a dead room. A really open, resonant horn isn't so great in a tiny, dead room with no feedback -- you feel like you're getting nothing for your effort.

A lot of times, it will feel like a certain setup achieves what you want for a given room, but something is not quite perfect. The idea might come to mind that you should try the "2" or "3" version instead, in the same configuration. This might work. However, I have found that the 2 and 3 pillars don't have that much of an effect by themselves. They are useful for solving the "something is not quite right" situation, above, by counterbalancing a pillar that seems to be working in most situations, placed in the adjacent hole and in the opposite direction. If you have a "1" in the middle hole facing down, leave it there and try a putting a "2" in the bell hole, facing up. Etc.

Recently, I have been playing with a copper "2" in the bell hole, facing up, and the long copper with lock in the middle hole, facing down and screwed in just enough so that it is flush with the top side (ie, out all the way, but fully seated). This seems to work really well in the biggest variety of rooms. The blow is about medium but resonant, and the partials are well defined and stable. It's extremely easy to play, especially in the upper register. It projects a lot, but having the long copper pillar next to my ear seems to give me audible feedback. The only complaint is that the sound I'm hearing behind the bell seems like it doesn't sparkle that much. But I've made recordings in some really great rooms, and the sound coming out the bell sounds complex and interesting in the recordings. The EQ analyzer shows laser beam harmonics in the sound -- it just doesn't sound as cool as that from behind the bell.

That's all I can say about it. Give it a shot. I'll laugh if the new pdf from Edwards gets posted and contradicts everything I've written here. It is what it is.

The obvious counterargument... I'll say it.

"People were able to adapt to whatever room they were in without these pillars, and they still do...so..."

Yes. I know this very well and I've dealt with it up until I got the 396A. You always have to figure out how the room (or great outdoors) is going to treat you on any particular gig, and figure it out fast. Now, I have a couple ideas up my sleeve before my first note, and I can just blow and go, no matter where I'm playing.

I just remember all the cats coming back from the boutique trombone shop when I was in the practice rooms at UMass, and everyone was sounding terrible in those tiny things. They sounded great in the medium sized classroom that we had for the studio. You set up a horn to sound great in one room, on one given day, and then spend every day compromising to whatever extent after that because you're never going to be playing in that room again. Being able to fix your horn for whatever whack room you're in is amazing, and as easy as using a tuning slide.

That's all I got!

[ZacharyThornton]

Here you guys go!

[Matt K]

Here you guys go!

Would anybody oppose a sticky? Or Zach, perhaps a Q&A style thread for Edwards like when Ben Griffin was at Shires and posted over on the old forum? I think we can arrange something and its great to have someone on the inside both one of the major manufacturers as well as in the community here.

-Matt

[ZacharyThornton]

Here you guys go!

Would anybody oppose a sticky? Or Zach, perhaps a Q&A style thread for Edwards like when Ben Griffin was at Shires and posted over on the old forum? I think we can arrange something and its great to have someone on the inside both one of the major manufacturers as well as in the community here.

-Matt

I was thinking of doing that one day. As of right now I have only been at Getzen/ Edwards for two months. I am not qualified to really answer much

[harrisonreed]

The yellow pillars aren't offered any more?

[ZacharyThornton]

The yellow pillars aren't offered any more?

Haven’t been for sometime. When I bought my B502IY when they first came out, brass wasn’t an option. That was 2013?

[whitbey]

Brass would be easy to make as you can buy brass rod at a hobby shop and thread it.

After I played with the pillars from Edwards I tried several bolts and screws of differing hardness and length. The results were wild and crazy, but it showed how much so little can change a horn.

On my straight neck pipe I found putting the weight closer to the neck pipe played better. I never went on to drill out the counter weight so it would fit on the larger part of the brace. I am convinced it too would make a difference.

[ericcheng2005]

Sorry for the necro and sorry if this is a stupid question, but do all Edwards horns that have a harmonic bridge come with a pillar set?

[ZacharyThornton]

Sorry for the necro and sorry if this is a stupid question, but do all Edwards horns that have a harmonic bridge come with a pillar set?

Yep! If they have the uni-pillar (CRE valve sections) they come with two pillars.

[ericcheng2005]

Sorry for the necro and sorry if this is a stupid question, but do all Edwards horns that have a harmonic bridge come with a pillar set?

Yep! If they have the uni-pillar (CRE valve sections) they come with two pillars.

Thanks! Can't wait to get my very own T396

[Bonearzt]

The yellow pillars aren't offered any more?

You can get brass screws at any hardware store, just take another pillar and match the threads!

Easy and cheap way to experiment with other materials and lengths!!


Eric

[Bach42t]

These Edwards doo-dads remind me of the Christian Lindberg / UMI bell wrap thingy he used to peddle back in the 90s to dampen the sound. I will tell you one thing, I bet they add even more weight to that heavy SGX Bell.

[harrisonreed]

These Edwards doo-dads remind me of the Christian Lindberg / UMI bell wrap thingy he used to peddle back in the 90s to dampen the sound. I will tell you one thing, I bet they add even more weight to that heavy SGX Bell.

Have you tried either? Seems like you haven't.

[mrdeacon]

These Edwards doo-dads remind me of the Christian Lindberg / UMI bell wrap thingy he used to peddle back in the 90s to dampen the sound. I will tell you one thing, I bet they add even more weight to that heavy SGX Bell.

Have you tried either? Seems like you haven't.

Reminds of the time I was at a community band rehearsal and an older fellow was ranting about the "young folk" in the group.

And I quote... "Kids these days with their rock and roll, and their roller coasters! They're so spaced out they can't even count to four!"

It was an interesting group to be in haha