King 3b f attachment mods

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Rusty
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King 3b f attachment mods

Post by Rusty » Thu Mar 19, 2020 6:27 pm

Anyone changed the trigger system on a 3bf? The paddle isn’t In the best position and the action is a little clunky...
I wondered if it could be easily changed to something like a basic Yamaha or Conn string pull system?
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BGuttman
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Re: King 3b f attachment mods

Post by BGuttman » Thu Mar 19, 2020 8:43 pm

Sounds like the kidney shaped linkage has worn holes. Replacing it will make the action more secure.
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Re: King 3b f attachment mods

Post by Posaunus » Thu Mar 19, 2020 9:52 pm

BGuttman wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 8:43 pm
Sounds like the kidney shaped linkage has worn holes.
Not necessarily. The native position of the King 3BF thumb paddle (as it came from the factory) is ergonomically uncomfortable for some of us who are used to other better-positioned valve levers. It took me some time to get used to the King 3BF valve. :(
Rusty
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Re: King 3b f attachment mods

Post by Rusty » Thu Mar 19, 2020 11:51 pm

BGuttman wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 8:43 pm
Sounds like the kidney shaped linkage has worn holes. Replacing it will make the action more secure.
There’s no wear at all, it’s just the position and operation of the valve that I don’t like. I’d much prefer a simple metal bar and string linkage like a Conn 88h or similar.

Mine is from 1993 and has the black plastic bar.
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JohnL
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Re: King 3b f attachment mods

Post by JohnL » Fri Mar 20, 2020 12:26 am

Rusty wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 11:51 pm
Mine is from 1993 and has the black plastic bar.
So it's the hybrid linkage? Metal lever, plastic bar, and string? Like this?
3bf.jpg
3bf.jpg (16.17 KiB) Viewed 1257 times
Rusty
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Re: King 3b f attachment mods

Post by Rusty » Fri Mar 20, 2020 3:35 am

JohnL wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 12:26 am
Rusty wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 11:51 pm
Mine is from 1993 and has the black plastic bar.
So it's the hybrid linkage? Metal lever, plastic bar, and string? Like this?
3bf.jpg
That’s the one! Thanks John, I was trying to upload a photo but couldn’t get it working.

The action just feels slow, the paddle you press feels more like pressing a button if that makes sense, and the leverage just isn’t the best.

The plastic bar doesn’t look overly sturdy, I’m not sure why King went with that design. I just wonder about clearance issues too though if I had it modified, on a 3b there’s not as much room as a large bore with a wider slide etc
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BGuttman
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Re: King 3b f attachment mods

Post by BGuttman » Fri Mar 20, 2020 6:17 am

I have a 30 year old horn with two of those valves (a King 7B). In all the time I own it I broke ONE of the plastic bars when the horn fell onto concrete. They are easy to replace.

The older instruments (mid 1970s) had a metal rod in place of the plastic. Either way they work about the same.

One issue is if your string is stretched or loose. That can make the action sloppy. It would be the same on a string 88H.

First thing I would try is to make sure the string is nice and taut. That will make it feel a LOT better.

The closest thing to a direct linkage would be the older kidney shaped metal pieces that directly connected the trigger to the valve. You may need to replace the trigger and all the linkages in between (I don't have one to look at; maybe one of our Techs could weigh in). To make it work like a Conn or Yamaha you would need a lot more changes (think lots of $$$).
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JohnL
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Re: King 3b f attachment mods

Post by JohnL » Fri Mar 20, 2020 4:09 pm

BGuttman wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 6:17 am
One issue is if your string is stretched or loose. That can make the action sloppy. It would be the same on a string 88H.
Other possibilities are the the valve really is sluggish (a clean and lube will fix that) or that it's not strung correctly so it's binding.

But none of that matters if you really don't like the ergonomics of the thumb-over-brace linkage.
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BGuttman
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Re: King 3b f attachment mods

Post by BGuttman » Fri Mar 20, 2020 4:36 pm

Problem is, if the issue is thumb over brace linkage there is no easy solution for a 3B. You will have to trade it in on something else. Disclaimer: I prefer thumb over brace linkages. You don't need Bullet Braces, Ax Handles, straps, etc.
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Re: King 3b f attachment mods

Post by Posaunus » Fri Mar 20, 2020 6:05 pm

To me, the ergonomic issue is not the "thumb over brace" but where my thumb hits the valve paddle - it's too close to the palm, instead of more toward the tip of the thumb, where it would feel better. Like Bruce, I'm fine having the brace as a support.
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Re: King 3b f attachment mods

Post by Rusty » Fri Mar 20, 2020 10:28 pm

My strong could perhaps do with a re-tensioning, but it’s more the design I don’t like, I think the system itself is working as intended.

I might talk to my tech and look at the paddle position. I agree, it’s very close to the brace, I have big hands and would find it more comfortable if it was further away, this would help the actual leverage feel more immediate too perhaps.
rmb796
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Re: King 3b f attachment mods

Post by rmb796 » Sat Mar 21, 2020 8:56 am

Hi,
When I know I will be using the trigger on a piece I shift my middle finger BEHIND the top SLIDE brace.
This seems to put me in a fine position to play the trigger notes. I hope I explained this ok.
Good luck. The King 3bf is a great all around horn.
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Burgerbob
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Re: King 3b f attachment mods

Post by Burgerbob » Sat Mar 21, 2020 4:22 pm

I just got my bell section, so I haven't had time with a 3B/F for more than 10 years, but the Neotech puts my hand/thumb in a much more comfortable spot than a stock setup.

Image
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Kingfan
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Re: King 3b f attachment mods

Post by Kingfan » Sat Mar 21, 2020 9:10 pm

I have a string linkage 4B-F and a full metal linkage 3B-F. Never had a problem with either one. Took a Duo Gravis on a test drive, also no problem. All three have the thumb over the bell brace. And I have big hands. What works for one may not work for another. My 7B, on the other hand, with the thumb in front of the bell brace, requires a Neotech, and I'm thinking of moving up to a Bullet Brace... YMMV.
I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are still missing! :D
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Re: King 3b f attachment mods

Post by brassmedic » Sun Mar 22, 2020 1:40 am

I just want to say to everyone who says, "Can the King lever be more like a Conn?" No, it can't. The King lever goes OVER the brace. The Conn lever goes UNDER the brace. Therefore, they cannot be the same.
Brad Close Brass Instruments - brassmedic.com
Klimchak
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Re: King 3b f attachment mods

Post by Klimchak » Sun Mar 22, 2020 5:05 am

In the 3BFs I have had, there are some vintages that have the trigger paddle placed almost right above the cross brace and can make pressing it uncomfortable, or at least less than ideal. I have done a couple of things to fix this. Depending on the size of paddle (again, vary by year), I sometimes put a bit of tubing, fuel line or other similar, around it if there is clearance, or glue on a thicker rubber or cork pad on the paddle. This gets the thumb pressing the paddle a bit further back and does not need to curve over the cross brace. It can make it feel a bit more like the standard trigger set-up, but you still have the advantage of being able to use that cross brace as a support.
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