Why are earlier horns better?

WGWTR180
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Re: Why are earlier horns better?

Post by WGWTR180 »

FOSSIL wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 8:10 am
biggiesmalls wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 7:32 am DJ Kennedy once asked me to play and rank six different Elkhart 88H's he had lined up on stands in his studio. After I played all six horns multiple times, I gave my opinions: one dog, two mediocre horns, two really good horns, and one that was exceptional. DJ then told me that two different pros who had recently visited his studio had played the same horns, and had ranked them more or less the same way.

There are dogs and gems in every era. To make an all-too-obvious point: you need to play a horn to know anything at all about the way a horn actually plays, regardless of who made it or what era it was made in.
Here, old Conns are bought not for how they blow but how they sound... particularly in large concert halls in professional settings. Put simply, they still do the job really well....in the right hands. Old Conns vary hugely and sometimes the hardest to blow sound the best... I have had a couple of 62Hs that were exhausting to play but sounded great. Modern trombones are much more likely to be easier to play... My Raths walk all over the Conns in that respect...and sound good...just not like old Conns...

Chris
Well said!
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Re: Why are earlier horns better?

Post by Bonearzt »

There are old dogs and new dogs, old gems and new gems.

Age and birthplace are no guarantee that a horn will be great!! I'm sure Antonio Stradivarius put out some kindling wood in his time.


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Re: Why are earlier horns better?

Post by Cotboneman »

I don't know if one can make a generalization that the older, the better when it comes to trombones. Manufacturing has evolved just as has every other human endeavor. Early Yamahas are a prime example, I believe. Their instruments from the 60's and early 70's are nothing like their Xeno models today. Other manufacturers, like Getzen-Edwards have also improved.

On the other hand, there are vintage Conns, Kings, Bachs and others that were terrific in their day, and can still bring a smile to players' faces. And I agree that there are also dogs in every era, including the present day. I remember as a new graduate student being so proud of my new Bach 42B and 50B trombones purchased around 1984. They didn't hold up very well either musically or mechanically, and I couldn't wait to ditch them, which I did.

On the other hand, the two Getzens that I bought in the late 90's turned out to be perfect for what I do, so I have had no reason to abandon them. I play them every day, and it is going on 22 years. Not everybody will agree with a horn in any era, but that is why we are individuals. I've always believed that if a player sounds great on a horn, and it feels right for them, than they have a great horn, regardless of when, or where it was made.
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Re: Why are earlier horns better?

Post by sf105 »

FOSSIL wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 8:10 am Here, old Conns are bought not for how they blow but how they sound... particularly in large concert halls in professional settings. Put simply, they still do the job really well....in the right hands. Old Conns vary hugely and sometimes the hardest to blow sound the best... I have had a couple of 62Hs that were exhausting to play but sounded great. Modern trombones are much more likely to be easier to play... My Raths walk all over the Conns in that respect...and sound good...just not like old Conns...
I had Ed Solomons' Rath for a while. Very well made but I didn't get on with it, although I learned a lot. The word that came to my mind for the sound was "pasturised". That said, we know there are plenty of top-rank players who sound great on theirs and I expect they appreciate the reliability.

Meanwhile, I know of one student in London who's bought some of that Elkhart magic and, frankly, I don't think he got the best for his money.

S
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Re: Why are earlier horns better?

Post by dukesboneman »

I`ve had horns from many different eras of different brands.
I had a 1928 Conn 78H that was pure MAGIC. (should never had let that go)
I have a 1928 Conn Eb Tuba - same thing just a stupendous instrument.
I had briefly a 1990`s era Bach 36B that was a DOG !
I have a Mount Vernon 36 that was OK, changed the leadpipe to an Edwards #2 and BINGO great horn
It`s all a crap shoot.
I`ve tried Rath`s. I really wanted to like them, NOT for me.
I`ve tried some Shires and Edwards Horns - Great Instruments , just not that much better than the horns I`ve got.
I personally like the older horns but If a newer plays better.......
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Re: Why are earlier horns better?

Post by Arrowhead »

I once got into a discussion with a repair tech (who wasn't a brass player) about older horns and briefly mentioned "cartridge brass". His answer: besides the difference in metal alloy mixture, the term "cartridge brass" can also refer to the quality of brass as well- the idea being that high quality brass from the 30's and 40's really isn't the same as today's brass. That seemed to be a good answer. Perhaps that's why older horns have their sound. That combined with the fact that the more a horn is "hand made"- maybe the better the quality? Perhaps?
Why does a Williams 6 sound like it does? And why does no modern horn play as easily as that horn? I have no idea. It was the Colonel Sanders secret recipe.
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Re: Why are earlier horns better?

Post by Leanit »

The premise is flawed, so I won't dive in deep. But, consider this: time is a filter. Things made 50-100 years ago varied in quality, probably more than they do today, thanks to experience and refinements in technology.

If Bach made 100 horns in, say, 1934, a lot of them were crap. They're probably long gone. Given to a kid. Thrown off a bus. Bashed around in an Army band. But they managed to make a few gems. Those got saved and passed on.

Time is a filter. We know the best movies from 1939, but we don't know the turkeys. When you come across a playable, loved old horn, it's probably been protected for a reason. ....... But not always.

Your mileage may vary.

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- NY Bach #13
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Re: Why are earlier horns better?

Post by JohnL »

It's possible to be too old...

An original Williams 6 in good condition will set you back a serious chunk of change ($3,000 US, maybe more). One of Earl's pre-WWII horns with similar specs? Not so much.
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Re: Why are earlier horns better?

Post by Andre1966tr »

Cotboneman wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 6:40 pm Early Yamahas are a prime example, I believe. Their instruments from the 60's and early 70's are nothing like their Xeno models today.
Sorry, but I know a lot of trombone players who do not like the Xeno but the 70 and 80 horns. I am one of them..
I had a lot King 2B SilverSonic, the best one was a Silvertone from around 1936... don´t know why
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Re: Why are earlier horns better?

Post by bcschipper »


Here, old Conns are bought not for how they blow but how they sound... particularly in large concert halls in professional settings. Put simply, they still do the job really well....in the right hands. Old Conns vary hugely and sometimes the hardest to blow sound the best... I have had a couple of 62Hs that were exhausting to play but sounded great. Modern trombones are much more likely to be easier to play... My Raths walk all over the Conns in that respect...and sound good...just not like old Conns...

Chris
Sorry, my experience is very limited. I am curious to what you mean with “(m)odern trombones are much more likely to be easier to play.” What does “easier” mean her and what makes a trombone easier to play?

(Maybe it is difficult to describe and I should try some modern trombones.)

On the European heritage of US makers alluded to by Doug Elliott, I don’t really get it. Trombone builders in Germany for instance would despise of two-piece bells or these crooks that are not seamed. And these clunky braces. May be I am wrong, but there are some distinct “American” design features already in early American models that do not seem to have an European heritage. Also, why can’t they build trombones that can play Ab above staff in tune in first position? Why do people buy trombones that by design are out of tune?

I think the mainstream sound aesthetics of trombones has changed over time. Currently it seems to be a fat homogenous sound across registers that is much less colorless than in the past. A little bit like a foghorn. There is also less shaping of notes in the phrasing of music played today. May be this has to do with the discussion of modern versus old instruments. Maybe it is easier to play in the foghorn straightjacket on modern instruments but more difficult to change colors and shape notes?
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Re: Why are earlier horns better?

Post by Andre1966tr »

bcschipper wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:08 am
Also, why can’t they build trombones that can play Ab above staff in tune in first position? Why do people buy trombones that by design are out of tune?
This is very funny...thank you..made my day
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Re: Why are earlier horns better?

Post by imsevimse »

bcschipper wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:08 am Sorry, my experience is very limited. I am curious to what you mean with “(m)odern trombones are much more likely to be easier to play.” What does “easier” mean her and what makes a trombone easier to play?

(Maybe it is difficult to describe and I should try some modern trombones.)
Good question! I think this could vary a bit for us, what we consider to be an easy horn to play. I have a lot of horns so I think I qualify to give my version.

Some trombones (also mouthpieces) response quicker. This means to me it takes less work to start notes on them. They also lock into a partial very easy. This means they help to steer into a desired partial even if you are not hitting the centre. The feeling is "the horn plays itself". To find such a horn is a blessing at first. The backside can be they are not as easy to color and they can also be a bit loud. The overall feeling could be they are easy to play but not fun.

What makes it easier to play? That was a tougher question. I have no clue there.
bcschipper wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:08 am On the European heritage of US makers alluded to by Doug Elliott, I don’t really get it. Trombone builders in Germany for instance would despise of two-piece bells or these crooks that are not seamed. And these clunky braces. May be I am wrong, but there are some distinct “American” design features already in early American models that do not seem to have an European heritage. Also, why can’t they build trombones that can play Ab above staff in tune in first position? Why do people buy trombones that by design are out of tune?
A trombone that has a playable Ab in first is not a problem if you tune very sharp but that is not your question.

Could a trombone be designed to have all notes on first position lined up, including an intune Ab?

I guess it is possible, but then the outer positions would probably not be lined up the same and it would be a very different horn to play compared to all others. The partials line up differently with different brands and it could also vary between excerpts of the same models.
I think a horn without leadpipe would change where the Ab is? Try, if you have a removable leadpipe. You need to put some paper around the mouthpiece to make it seal.
bcschipper wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:08 am I think the mainstream sound aesthetics of trombones has changed over time. Currently it seems to be a fat homogenous sound across registers that is much less colorless than in the past. A little bit like a foghorn. There is also less shaping of notes in the phrasing of music played today. May be this has to do with the discussion of modern versus old instruments. Maybe it is easier to play in the foghorn straightjacket on modern instruments but more difficult to change colors and shape notes?
The boresize has become bigger and the mouthpieces are also getting bigger. It is true you could fall in the trap and sound more colorless, but as we all know it depends on who is playing. The player has to find the color with whatever horn he plays so he does not loose the beautiful colors. I think many players play to big equipment without having a proper technique and that's why they sound colorless. I also think some players avoid the "light" in their sound because they don't want to be the ones accused of playing with a "bright" sound.

My experience is the confidence of "sound" comes after you produce a sound that sparkles and the conductor looks at you with a happy smile and wants more of you, or when you ask the conductor if you are playing to loud and he answers "I want more". It could be when you play first chair in a big band and the saxophone player in front after the gig turns around and says she/he likes your sound, or when the baritonsax player turns around and loves the support you are bringing to her/his part in unison when you are on the bass, or when the audience compliment the trombone section and says they like your lead sound or your bass trombone sound or the section sound. When this happens then you know you are on the right horn and you know you produce a good sound.

Remember YOU are the only one who never hear your own true sound. The sound that reach you will always be a mix of sound. It reaches your ears both from outside and through your body and bones. What is a big difference is also YOU never hear yourself up-front as the conductor does. You need to trust your teacher, conductor and your colleagues for sound. If they say you sound good then you do. It is possible the right mix of colors can be in your sound even if you do not hear them yourself. The opposite is also possible. You hear a good sound coming from you, but the ones in front and near you hear something else.

Early horns are not better, they are just different.

/Tom
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Re: Why are earlier horns better?

Post by elmsandr »

bcschipper wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:08 am Sorry, my experience is very limited. I am curious to what you mean with “(m)odern trombones are much more likely to be easier to play.” What does “easier” mean her and what makes a trombone easier to play?

(Maybe it is difficult to describe and I should try some modern trombones.)
With a lot of older horns, you get quirks, like octaves that may not be in tune, slots for each pitch that are VERY wide but shallow. So you need to train yourself harder to get the pitch you want to sound correctly. If every note responds with a very similar or somewhat linear approach, you can get used to it easier and work around different aspects of music easier, in theory at least. If you have to remember that every G takes a different air stream, it is one more thing that you need to train in to yourself to make it come out the bell effortlessly. Maybe you get a little more constrained in how a newer horn responds to your input, maybe not.
On the European heritage of US makers alluded to by Doug Elliott, I don’t really get it. Trombone builders in Germany for instance would despise of two-piece bells or these crooks that are not seamed. And these clunky braces. May be I am wrong, but there are some distinct “American” design features already in early American models that do not seem to have an European heritage. Also, why can’t they build trombones that can play Ab above staff in tune in first position? Why do people buy trombones that by design are out of tune?
Not touching the first part here... but what are you talking about with the Ab? In tune to WHAT? Equal temperment? No thank you. Take most semi-modern horns and play that Ab in the Tuba Mirum excerpt where it lies on the horn without adjustment and thank me later. The physics do not align to equal temperment nor should they in my opinion. Of course, this depends on the ensemble you are choosing to follow, but moving away from equal temperment when possible is always a treat.
I think the mainstream sound aesthetics of trombones has changed over time. Currently it seems to be a fat homogenous sound across registers that is much less colorless than in the past. A little bit like a foghorn. There is also less shaping of notes in the phrasing of music played today. May be this has to do with the discussion of modern versus old instruments. Maybe it is easier to play in the foghorn straightjacket on modern instruments but more difficult to change colors and shape notes?
Could you post an example recording or two where there is less shaping of notes or coloring of tones? I'm not sure I understand or agree with that, at least at the highest level. At the amatuer/semi-pro level... sure, I could believe that, but I do not have any old recordings there that would be a fair comparison. For a singular comparison, sure a 1950s Bud Herseth recording sounds better than just about anybody I've heard recorded recently, but I don't think that has anything to do with the horn.

Cheers,
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Re: Why are earlier horns better?

Post by Cotboneman »

Andre1966tr wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:00 am
Cotboneman wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 6:40 pm Early Yamahas are a prime example, I believe. Their instruments from the 60's and early 70's are nothing like their Xeno models today.
Sorry, but I know a lot of trombone players who do not like the Xeno but the 70 and 80 horns. I am one of them..
I had a lot King 2B SilverSonic, the best one was a Silvertone from around 1936... don´t know why
I'm simply going by my own youthful experience. I was only referring to Yamaha, not other makes. I played on some Yamahas in the 60's and perhaps early 70's when I was in high school and college. It is possible that they were not great horns, or I maybe I was simply not very good in those days (which is probably much more true). I was generally not that impressed with them. I didn't really play a Yamaha trombone again until the mid 90's. I tried some Xeno models when they were first introduced and really liked the ones I played on, but I was not looking to buy any new horns at that time.
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Re: Why are earlier horns better?

Post by Andre1966tr »

imsevimse wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 3:35 am

A trombone that has a playable Ab in first is not a problem if you tune very sharp but that is not your question.

Could a trombone be designed to have all notes on first position lined up, including an intune Ab?

I guess it is possible, but then the outer positions would probably not be lined up the same and it would be a very different horn to play compared to all others. The partials line up differently with different brands and it could also vary between excerpts of the same models.
I think a horn without leadpipe would change where the Ab is? Try, if you have a removable leadpipe. You need to put some paper around the mouthpiece to make it seal.

There is only one note that is in tune with a piano, this is the Bb. Or let´s say it the other way round:
A piano, a guitar are tuned to have an octave divided in 12 tones, every tone has the same distance from the next, "das wohltemperierte Klavier"...the well tempered piano.... Bach...
A trombone is an instrument of nature...so it produces the overtones that a the overtones of the Bb: to high f, to low Ab and so on...there will never be a trombone that overcomes those physics..
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Re: Why are earlier horns better?

Post by Lastbone »

I may play vintage brass, but I gotta say, there's no vintage slide that compares to today's slides. Plus, removable lead pipes are now standard, and you can choose from a bunch of different valves and wraps. This is heaven! And, today's manufacturers serve up consistently good gear - no more looking for four copies of the same instrument to find one player. I think we are in a golden age of brass manufacture.

That said, vintage Bachs, Conns, Kings and Holtons each had a specific concept of sound, and that meant you knew what to expect when you sat in a section. With the advent of modular horns, you never know what's gonna come out of a specific Edwards or Shires, no matter how beautifully they are made. Each horn is now tailored to the individual player. To a great extent we have traded the old model of a matched section sound for more personal and individually expressive experience, and I kind of like it... It's fun!

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Re: Why are earlier horns better?

Post by bcschipper »

elmsandr wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 10:26 am
bcschipper wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:08 am On the European heritage of US makers alluded to by Doug Elliott, I don’t really get it. Trombone builders in Germany for instance would despise of two-piece bells or these crooks that are not seamed. And these clunky braces. May be I am wrong, but there are some distinct “American” design features already in early American models that do not seem to have an European heritage. Also, why can’t they build trombones that can play Ab above staff in tune in first position? Why do people buy trombones that by design are out of tune?
Not touching the first part here... but what are you talking about with the Ab? In tune to WHAT? Equal temperment? No thank you. Take most semi-modern horns and play that Ab in the Tuba Mirum excerpt where it lies on the horn without adjustment and thank me later. The physics do not align to equal temperment nor should they in my opinion. Of course, this depends on the ensemble you are choosing to follow, but moving away from equal temperment when possible is always a treat.
I am not sure I understand your remark on the Tuba mirum. Most play the Ab in third in the Tuba mirum on the (semi-)modern instruments. I play it in 1st totally in tune. My Bb above Ab is sharp compared to all partials below and above but I rather have something sharp in 1st position than flat. Other partials line up beautifully. I think all romantic concertinos are much better to play when as on romantic trombone you can play Ab in 1st. Not sure why this "romantic" tradition got lost with the American trombone design.

Given the physics of the trombone, I rather have Bb sharp than Ab flat. It simply gives you more flexibility, not just purely in terms of positions but also in terms of colors that come with different positions. And it is simply nice to have a usable complete overtone series for each position even just for warm-ups and flexibility studies.
I think the mainstream sound aesthetics of trombones has changed over time. Currently it seems to be a fat homogenous sound across registers that is much less colorless than in the past. A little bit like a foghorn. There is also less shaping of notes in the phrasing of music played today. May be this has to do with the discussion of modern versus old instruments. Maybe it is easier to play in the foghorn straightjacket on modern instruments but more difficult to change colors and shape notes?
Could you post an example recording or two where there is less shaping of notes or coloring of tones? I'm not sure I understand or agree with that, at least at the highest level. At the amatuer/semi-pro level... sure, I could believe that, but I do not have any old recordings there that would be a fair comparison. For a singular comparison, sure a 1950s Bud Herseth recording sounds better than just about anybody I've heard recorded recently, but I don't think that has anything to do with the horn.
Take any recordings of the David concertino on Youtube. In my opinion, the best is by Juergen Heinl. Much more colorful and note shaping than the others.

The oldest recording of solo trombone I am aware of is Joseph Serafin Alschausky with the Bluethner Orchestra Berlin from somewhere around 1910-1912. He plays his own composition. Even though the quality of old recordings is quite bad, it is very nice playing. The big range between dark and bright colors is very unlike today's playing.

I don't know Bud Herseth but I will look him up. Thanks.
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Re: Why are earlier horns better?

Post by BGuttman »

bcschipper wrote: Sat Jun 27, 2020 3:54 am ...

I don't know Bud Herseth but I will look him up. Thanks.
Adolph "Bud" Herseth was Principal Trumpet of the Chicago Symphony Orchestra from 1948 to 2001. A remarkable career.
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Re: Why are earlier horns better?

Post by sf105 »

I think FOSSIL said it best: everyone has their own sound, the trick is to find a horn that matches it.
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Re: Why are earlier horns better?

Post by Basbasun »

Andre1966tr wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:59 pm
imsevimse wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 3:35 am

A trombone that has a playable Ab in first is not a problem if you tune very sharp but that is not your question.

Could a trombone be designed to have all notes on first position lined up, including an intune Ab?


There is only one note that is in tune with a piano, this is the Bb. Or let´s say it the other way round:
A piano, a guitar are tuned to have an octave divided in 12 tones, every tone has the same distance from the next, "das wohltemperierte Klavier"...the well tempered piano.... Bach...
A trombone is an instrument of nature...so it produces the overtones that a the overtones of the Bb: to high f, to low Ab and so on...there will never be a trombone that overcomes those physics..
https://newt.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/brassa ... l#spectrum

Since the partials lining up in a trombone is a result of the bore profile, it is posslible to change the way the partials line up. That is why the partials on diffent trombones line up differntly. If you make the bore profile very different from what is typicaly trombone, we can have very differnt lineing ups. Theoreticaly it is possible to make a horn with all notes on the first position lined up with an intune Ab. But I believe that horn would be a catastrofy.
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Re: Why are earlier horns better?

Post by harrisonreed »

Andre1966tr wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:59 pm
imsevimse wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 3:35 am

A trombone that has a playable Ab in first is not a problem if you tune very sharp but that is not your question.

Could a trombone be designed to have all notes on first position lined up, including an intune Ab?

I guess it is possible, but then the outer positions would probably not be lined up the same and it would be a very different horn to play compared to all others. The partials line up differently with different brands and it could also vary between excerpts of the same models.
I think a horn without leadpipe would change where the Ab is? Try, if you have a removable leadpipe. You need to put some paper around the mouthpiece to make it seal.

There is only one note that is in tune with a piano, this is the Bb. Or let´s say it the other way round:
A piano, a guitar are tuned to have an octave divided in 12 tones, every tone has the same distance from the next, "das wohltemperierte Klavier"...the well tempered piano.... Bach...
A trombone is an instrument of nature...so it produces the overtones that a the overtones of the Bb: to high f, to low Ab and so on...there will never be a trombone that overcomes those physics..
Lol, there is only one note that is in tune with a piano??

What does this mean?? Does not the trombone have a slide? Any trombone can overcome those physics...

12 equal tones? On a piano? That's also wrong. The octaves do not line up on a good piano.
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Re: Why are earlier horns better?

Post by Basbasun »

Trombones made in the 19th centuary have better slides, valves, are more in tune (whatever that is) actually in that sence better trombones. Trombones made i 18th centuary may have not so good slides, not so good valves, may are more out of tune (well..). But they sound different. That is not better or worse, but if you like the sound...
Andre1966tr

Re: Why are earlier horns better?

Post by Andre1966tr »

harrisonreed wrote: Sun Jun 28, 2020 4:35 am
Andre1966tr wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:59 pm

There is only one note that is in tune with a piano, this is the Bb. Or let´s say it the other way round:
A piano, a guitar are tuned to have an octave divided in 12 tones, every tone has the same distance from the next, "das wohltemperierte Klavier"...the well tempered piano.... Bach...
A trombone is an instrument of nature...so it produces the overtones that a the overtones of the Bb: to high f, to low Ab and so on...there will never be a trombone that overcomes those physics..
Lol, there is only one note that is in tune with a piano??

What does this mean?? Does not the trombone have a slide? Any trombone can overcome those physics...

12 equal tones? On a piano? That's also wrong. The octaves do not line up on a good piano.
The overtones of a trombone, first position....get it? I am a pianist and I tell you the octave is divided in equal tones...else you could not play in every key...strange place here...
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Re: Why are earlier horns better?

Post by imsevimse »

Andre1966tr wrote: Sun Jun 28, 2020 8:54 am
harrisonreed wrote: Sun Jun 28, 2020 4:35 am

Lol, there is only one note that is in tune with a piano??

What does this mean?? Does not the trombone have a slide? Any trombone can overcome those physics...

12 equal tones? On a piano? That's also wrong. The octaves do not line up on a good piano.
The overtones of a trombone, first position....get it? I am a pianist and I tell you the octave is divided in equal tones...else you could not play in every key...strange place here...
I think Harrison refers to a special technique in "tuning" when it comes to tuning a piano.

There is a technique I've heard of that applies to tuning a piano where you streach the octaves to make it sound better. In that case the octaves willl not be perfectly in tune. I'm no piano technician but I've tried to tune a piano. It is hard to listen and make it just enough out of tune which it has to be if you are going to be able to play all keys. The streach of octaves came up when I investigated the matter of "tuning a piano" and the technique is only applied to pianos not to grand pianos. I don't know why.

/Toml
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Doug Elliott
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Re: Why are earlier horns better?

Post by Doug Elliott »

Stretched octaves just sound better even if they're not mathematically "correct.". Tuning is always relative to what else you're hearing and what "sounds good.". You wouldn't play mathematically correct just intonation if you're playing with a piano - or really in virtually any situation, because it doesn't fit.
Also the harmonic series of a brass instruments is manufactured by the design of the various tapers and flares, it's never perfect, but a series of compromises chosen by the designer.
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harrisonreed
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Re: Why are earlier horns better?

Post by harrisonreed »

Andre1966tr wrote: Sun Jun 28, 2020 8:54 am
harrisonreed wrote: Sun Jun 28, 2020 4:35 am

Lol, there is only one note that is in tune with a piano??

What does this mean?? Does not the trombone have a slide? Any trombone can overcome those physics...

12 equal tones? On a piano? That's also wrong. The octaves do not line up on a good piano.
The overtones of a trombone, first position....get it? I am a pianist and I tell you the octave is divided in equal tones...else you could not play in every key...strange place here...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stretched_tuning

I am a trombonist and I tell you that the octaves on a piano are not divided into 12 equal tones.

Also, that ... there is no 1st position ... there is only Zool. :)
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BrianAn
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Re: Why are earlier horns better?

Post by BrianAn »

Can we ban this ihomi guy yet, or...?
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Bach42t
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Re: Why are earlier horns better?

Post by Bach42t »

bigbandbone wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 7:02 am This is right on the money. At King as the old guys retired the young people who replaced them didn't care about quality. They only cared about making as much money as they could on piece work. And management didn't seem to care.
The first time I worked in the King Eastlake factory in the 80's the catch phrase was "King Craftsmanship". The second time I worked there in the late 90's that catch phrase had morphed to "King Crapsmanship"!

Well, that is revealing. If it was King Crapsmanship in the late 90's I wonder what the slogan is today???

Maybe it's just "blank" since nothing is printed on the King shipping boxes today.

Folks, I have said here before and I will say it again loud and proud:

As soon as King can get out from under Conn-Selmer umbrella (which it never will) and go the boutique realm then it can be made great again.

Then start making great models too with existing improved COTS valve sections married to classic models like 6B, 7B, with sterling bells....

A pipe dream I know.
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