10 1/2 INCH BELL

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SGlong
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10 1/2 INCH BELL

Post by SGlong »

Can anybody tell me why so many people are against bass trombones that sport a 10 1/2 inch bell? I read opinion after opinion saying to stay away from them "at all costs".
mrdeacon
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Re: 10 1/2 INCH BELL

Post by mrdeacon »

Have you played one? That'll convince you pretty quickly. Though I do think the hate 10" and 9" bells get is a bit undeserved.
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BGuttman
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Re: 10 1/2 INCH BELL

Post by BGuttman »

"At all costs" is a bit superlative. There are some who like them.

The larger bells tend to be a bit more diffuse and dent really easily.

If your hormones demand "bigger is better" then a 10.5" bell is your answer.

Just remember that most of us play 9.5" bells, probably for a reason.
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Burgerbob
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Re: 10 1/2 INCH BELL

Post by Burgerbob »

There are some good large bells out there.

That said, there's rarely a case where anything except the standard 9.5 is just better all around.
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paulyg
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Re: 10 1/2 INCH BELL

Post by paulyg »

I have a good one :)

It is very thin, gold brass (bach 50). It gives me gold brass sound, with yellow brass projection.

The good ones are REALLY good, the bad ones are REALLY bad (and far more numerous).
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SlideCrook
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Re: 10 1/2 INCH BELL

Post by SlideCrook »

I love the feel of the 10.5inch behind the bell of a 50BG3LO I had. I do not like the sound out in the audience. IT really let me down with how spread it was and weak in terms of projection.

The 10.5 was more shotgun with birdshot
The 9.5 is more bolt action .308
The 10s I’ve played are like a lever action 45-70 GOVT

A couple folks in the area seem to have trouble selling their 10.5 inch Bach 50s
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Re: 10 1/2 INCH BELL

Post by Kevbach33 »

mrdeacon wrote: Wed Jun 03, 2020 9:34 pm I do think the hate 10" and 9" bells get is a bit undeserved.
The larger diameter bells, performance issues aside, don't necessarily fit in all cases. That could be a problem with selling them on to the next buyer.

However...

In my mind there's nothing wrong with any bell diameter if it's tapered and produced properly. 10.5" is pushing it though.

If you have a larger or smaller bell diameter that works just as well as a 9.5" bell, great! Use it.

That's the stance I take with my bass. It has the largest taper I've seen on a bass trombone, justifying the 10" diameter (it's larger overall than a Bach 50, i believe). Massive sound, would be super dark with a big mouthpiece, and it's rose brass which exacerbates the darkness, though I use something moderate to keep that tendency in check and give it more life. The larger diameter gives it some necessary spread, otherwise it'd be a laser beam of darkness.
SlideCrook wrote: Wed Jun 03, 2020 11:42 pm I love the feel of the 10.5inch behind the bell of a 50BG3LO I had. I do not like the sound out in the audience. IT really let me down with how spread it was and weak in terms of projection.

The 10.5 was more shotgun with birdshot
The 9.5 is more bolt action .308
The 10s I’ve played are like a lever action 45-70 GOVT
Would that make a 9" like a .50 cal? :pant:
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Re: 10 1/2 INCH BELL

Post by mrdeacon »

Kevbach33 wrote: Thu Jun 04, 2020 12:40 am Would that make a 9" like a .50 cal? :pant:
9" bells are usually lazy beams. Just a stupid amount of core and project really well. Not a ton of feedback side to side.

My Minick bass has a 9 1/4" bell with a wide Fuchs style throat (the mutes go farther in than normal). This bell honestly doesn't sound that great in a small room. Feels and sounds like a small bell... but in a hall holy cow, it's a monster. There isn't much side to side feedback for the section so it feels like you aren't playing very loud but out in the audience, the sound is huge. The sound just projects straight to the back of the hall.

Small bells can be really special if they are the right horn.
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stewbones43
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Re: 10 1/2 INCH BELL

Post by stewbones43 »

I have 2 basses in my line up.
My main bass is a Benge/Holton/Rath hybrid with a 10in Gold Brass bell and a 0.562in bore slide.
My other bass is a Besson Academy 409 single trigger Bb/F with a 9in yellow brass bell and a bore of 0.555in.

I find that for most of my bass playing, the bigger bass is ideal but there are times when the smaller bass is more suitable; classical repertoire when the other guys are using an alto and a small/medium bore tenor. The big one is just too big but the small is better than a large tenor with a bass mouthpiece in it; and how often to find low B natural in classical period music?
I usually use a Bach 1.5G with the Besson but with the bigger bass I usually use a Yeo Signature for orchestral stuff or a DE LB114E8 gold rim for big band playing.

I also often use the Besson for orchestra rehearsals as it is much lighter to hold than the bigger hybrid, switching to the bigger bass a couple of rehearsals before the concert. At my age, it makes life easier.

Cheers

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JohnL
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Re: 10 1/2 INCH BELL

Post by JohnL »

I think one reason 10.5” bells get a bad rap is that so many of the extant examples are 50B3L’s. How much of the perceived issue is just “Bach being Bach” (particularly the standard rotor valve set) and how much is actually the big flare?
Crazy4Tbone86
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Re: 10 1/2 INCH BELL

Post by Crazy4Tbone86 »

All other things equal..... The 10.5 inch bells give great feedback to the player, but the sound is wider and diffuses faster, so the projection to row 27 is not as good. The 9.5 inch bells give a little less feedback to the player, but the sound projects farther away and works well in larger, deeper venues. Obviously, there are MANY other variables in bell construction that come into play. That is the reason I prefaced my statement with...."All other things equal"

I have a Bach 50GL (10.5 inch bell) that I use for special performance occasions. For example: a couple of years ago I was hired as a "ringer" bass trombonist for a private high school jazz band concert. They paid me to sit in on two rehearsals and two performances. I was told in advance that the band had a "big sound," so I showed up at the first rehearsal with my Edwards bass with a heavy 9.5 inch bell.....thinking that they wanted my to blow the walls down. After about 45-minutes of rehearsing, one of the music faculty (who was listening in the audience) pulled me aside and said that my sound was far too much for the ensemble. I showed up for the second rehearsal with my Bach 10.5 inch bell, knowing that the sound did not project as well with that bell. I was able to play exactly the same way and the sound reaching the audience was more appropriate for the young ensemble. Essentially, the 10.5 inch bell reduced my projection by about 15-20%.

I also use my 10.5 inch bell in halls that are shallow but wide (I have noticed that a few of the newer halls in my area are designed that way to keep a larger portion of the audience closer to the stage). After all, shallow and wide is an excellent description of the projection spectrum of the 10.5 inch bell!
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Re: 10 1/2 INCH BELL

Post by tbonesullivan »

I think part of the issue is as others have said: almost all of the perceptions of 10 1/2 inch bell bass trombones are based on Bach 50s. Most other companies don't even offer bell size options for bass trombones.

What makes this important with Bach is that I'm pretty sure they don't have a different mandrel for the 10 1/2 inch bell. It's the same mandrel, with the bell spun out further. This may make the metal a bit thinner, and also makes the edge of the bell closer to perpendicular to the direction of air flow.
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harrisonreed
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Re: 10 1/2 INCH BELL

Post by harrisonreed »

Kevbach33 wrote: Thu Jun 04, 2020 12:40 am
SlideCrook wrote: Wed Jun 03, 2020 11:42 pm
The 10.5 was more shotgun with birdshot
The 9.5 is more bolt action .308
The 10s I’ve played are like a lever action 45-70 GOVT
Would that make a 9" like a .50 cal? :pant:
Fired from standard sized rifles or shotguns:

10.5" bell = 12 gauge birdshot = 23ft-lbs recoil
10" bell = 45-70 gvt = 30ft-lbs recoil
9.5" bell = .308 = 17 ft-lbs recoil
9" bell = .50 cal = 97 ft-lbs recoil

....

Wha...?

Or:

10.5" bell = 12 gauge birdshot = 25 yard effective range
10" bell = 45-70 gvt = 500-1000 yd effective range
9.5" bell = .308 = 1000 yd effective range
9" bell = .50 cal = 2000 yd, up to 4000 yd in some variants for anti materiel applications....

Hmmmm......maybe this? Let's all use 9" bells on our bass trombones
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Re: 10 1/2 INCH BELL

Post by Crazy4Tbone86 »

Legend has it that Ed Anderson had the Bach factory make him a 50 with an 11" bell. I don't know if this was during his years at Cleveland Orchestra or when he taught at Indiana U. I saw Ed perform frequently with the orchestra when I was at Oberlin in the early 80's......never saw him play on a horn with an unusually large bell. Any IU alums out there that possibly witnessed him playing the legendary 11" bell? I always wondered how that would sound. Then again.......he was Ed Anderson and anything he played sounded great!
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Burgerbob
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Re: 10 1/2 INCH BELL

Post by Burgerbob »

Robert Coomber has either that horn, or one just like it in LA now.
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Re: 10 1/2 INCH BELL

Post by JoeStanko »

The 11” flare was heavy gold brass and was from his time at IU. Brian, I have had Ed’s Mount Vernon with the first 10 1/2” flare for some time..this is the instrument you heard in Severance. A topic for another time.

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Re: 10 1/2 INCH BELL

Post by Crazy4Tbone86 »

Joe....thanks for sharing that information. Yes, I enjoyed going to Severance Hall to see the Cleveland Orchestra. They also came to Oberlin 3 or 4 times a year for the Artist Concert Series. I went to hear the brass and was never disappointed. However, the strings left me speechless on many occasions.

The interesting thing is that I really don't recall that Ed Anderson's horn had a particularly large bell and you are saying that he performed on a 10.5" Mount Vernon bell. This would make sense because 2 or 3 of the bass trombone majors at Oberlin in the early 80's had 10.5" bells. Back then, the 10.5" bells were rather commonplace. I guess I was around them so much, I considered them "normal."

Today, it seems like very few people play on the 10.5" bells. They are so unique that I notice them immediately. I think I could spot one from 100 yards away!
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Re: 10 1/2 INCH BELL

Post by Kevbach33 »

harrisonreed wrote: Thu Jun 04, 2020 4:52 pm
Kevbach33 wrote: Thu Jun 04, 2020 12:40 am

Would that make a 9" like a .50 cal? :pant:
Fired from standard sized rifles or shotguns:

10.5" bell = 12 gauge birdshot = 25 yard effective range
10" bell = 45-70 gvt = 500-1000 yd effective range
9.5" bell = .308 = 1000 yd effective range
9" bell = .50 cal = 2000 yd, up to 4000 yd in some variants for anti materiel applications....

Hmmmm......maybe this? Let's all use 9" bells on our bass trombones
Yeah, this is what i was thinking. Diameter is to gauge/caliber as range is to projection. (I think I have that analogy style right.) 10.5" has the most spread, while 9" has the most projection, all other variables being equal. The other two are pretty good compromises between projection and spread, and also why 9.5" is the default diameter for the majority of bass trombones.
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Re: 10 1/2 INCH BELL

Post by imsevimse »

I don't think 10,5" bells are bad. I haven't played many but I tried a Bach with a 10,5" once that was very good. I have a couple of 10" TR-180 Holtons that are nice and a 10" 290 Benge and a big Yamaha 612R. I think the big bells spread more to the sides and the smaller bells project more. I know when I play a 9" or a 9.5" then people around me and in front of me hear me better. I make more sound than I think I do. If I play a 10" it is just the opposite, then I hear a lot of sound where I am but people around do not hear the same. It is what I remember from trying different size bells.

/Tom
SGlong
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Re: 10 1/2 INCH BELL

Post by SGlong »

Thank you to all that have responded to this thread.
Being a tenor player most of my life, I didn't pay too much attention to the different styles of the bass trombone but i've always loved the sound and range of the bass. Back in the early 70's, I remember Tom Bridges came into the band room with a bass trombone that had an enormous bell (probably 10 1/2 inches) and I thought it sounded great, but after all, it was Tom Bridges... I joined an orchestra and a jazz band within the last couple years (after retirement) and they needed a bass trombonist, so I bought a cheap one from China to try out to see if playing the part would suit me, since playing it on my 6H, TR4501 or 1962 3B Silversonic wasn't the best use of those instruments. It did, so rather quickly, I purchased a Bach 50AF3 and have played it since, but I'm not a fan of infinity valves. Just this week, I picked up a Bach 50A3L with Hagmann valves. I like these valves much better! I look forward to gigging again to see how the 10 1/2 inch bell reacts in the different settings, like it was mentioned in earlier posts. Brian Hinkley nailed it when he said the larger bell gives great feedback. It also has (in my opinion) a much darker and richer tone than the 9 1/2 inch bell on the 50AF3. When we can play together again, I'll post a follow-up to let everyone know how it goes.
(personal note to Bruce Guttman: No hormones were hurt in the making of this post :-)
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