Shires Bell-Tuning Alto

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harrisonreed
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Shires Bell-Tuning Alto

Post by harrisonreed »

Has anyone who regularly plays alto as a part of their job tried one of these yet? Looks like they made one for Joe Alessi, and now the might be available as a Q series item?

Hickeys had some specs, combined with the fact that it will be a Q series offering, that left me underwhelmed. But specs don't tell the whole story. For those interested, it's a single bore, .485 slide. Two piece yellow bell. Q series, so no options, no valve. Having tried their TIS dual bore model, and (aside from the very heavy slide) been completely blown away by how great it sounded and how easy it was to play, I was sad to see additional deviations beyond just the tuning mechanism switch. But maybe that's an attempt to temper what they say is "an added weight of sound, more akin to a tenor trombone" coming from bell tuning.

Specifically interested in how different the partials lined up and general intonation compare to the TIS model. TIS might as well have been a short tenor, intonation wise. It's completely intuitive. So I'm wondering if the bell tuning version is more ...special... like a 36H is when it comes to the partials.

Also curious if anyone has seen or tried one with a Bb valve.

I've been holding out for years for Edwards to release the new alto they promised, but I'm not sure that it is going to happen. This would be great if the bell tuning Shires was even 90% close on intonation to their TIS version, and had the valve.
Last edited by harrisonreed on Mon Jun 15, 2020 5:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Neo Bri
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Re: Shires Bell-Tuning Alto

Post by Neo Bri »

It's funny. I play a 36H every day pretty much and I haven't really noticed much intonation weirdness.
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harrisonreed
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Re: Shires Bell-Tuning Alto

Post by harrisonreed »

Neo Bri wrote: Mon Jun 15, 2020 5:30 pm It's funny. I play a 36H every day pretty much and I haven't really noticed much intonation weirdness.
I've noticed that the G partial on the ones I've tried needs to be crunched in towards F# pretty badly, so that the G needs to pulled way out, and F is pulled way in from the bell. And a general tendency to go flat around Bb4 and get worse the higher you go.

It's not horrible, especially if you play it every day, but the difference was incredible between it and the Shires. I love my 36H and think it sounds great, but I only have three trombones. If I can get something even better, I'll try to do it! :)
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paulyg
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Re: Shires Bell-Tuning Alto

Post by paulyg »

Funny they attribute the "added weight of sound" to the bell tuning. I've heard slide tuning altos (Shires) that sound like medium-bore tenors the way they're being played. Lots of light, artful playing, very much in the alto trombone camp, has been done on bell tuning altos.

I'd have to try one to determine whether or not they're talking out their rears. However, the $2100 price tag is discouraging. I'd expect it to be FAR less expensive, especially coming from China. Mow a couple more lawns and you can get an M & W alto. Is it $1200 better than a JP 236? Probably not. I got my second-hand Latzsch for 2K. Add to that the fact that you can get a Jin Bao Slokar copy, whose design accounts for the sum total of that company's beginner's luck, for a QUARTER the price.

Who are they trying to sell to? Beginners? Pros? Students? I'm confused. It should either be a thousand dollars cheaper, or a thousand dollars more expensive (and made in Massachusetts).
Paul Gilles
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Crazy4Tbone86
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Re: Shires Bell-Tuning Alto

Post by Crazy4Tbone86 »

I have fabricated a few alto trombones from assorted tenor trombone parts. All of these horns are tuning-in-bell models. My experience has taught me this....if you do not get the dimensions in the bell section correct, the intonation goes absolutely wacko! I believe the most difficult section of an alto trombone to construct is the slide receiver to the large side of the tuning slide. Here are the things that I have found:

*If the taper in this section is too fast (too wide), the 6th partial (high B-flat) is very flat.
*If the taper in this section is too slow (too tight), the 2nd and 4th partials (both E-flat partials) tend to drift sharp.
*Many players with tuning-in-bell altos complain that their 5th partials (G) drift sharp.....this is the opposite of many tenor trombones, which can easily drift flat on that partial. Fortunately, I have not experienced this problem on any of my altos.

I see these same intonation problems in some of the most widely-played tuning-in-bell alto models on the market....Yamaha, Conn etc... Of all the issues, the flat 6th partial seems to be the toughest for me to manage. That high A and B-flat are the heart and soul of so many great works on alto trombone. Yet, I find myself constantly lifting those pitches to be in tune. It's exhausting!

I chatted with Steve Shires at the American Trombone Workshop a couple of years ago about intonation problems with alto trombones and he said his first few experiments in making altos brought up the same problems that I stated above. His solution was to go with the tuning-in-slide design in order to have maximum control of that particular bell taper. For me, the Shires tuning-in-slide altos have a wonderful and effortless 6th partial I think his tuning-in-slide altos are great and (if I had the money to spare) I would love to buy one.

I am surprised that Shires would be producing a tuning-in-bell model. I am sure that it plays well, but not as well as the established Shires models. I am wondering if this is just an attempt to market a cheaper alto trombone?

I cannot exit this conversation without stating this....I think the folks at M & W make outstanding trombones. I would love to try one of their altos sometime. They use a tuning-in-bell construction, so I am wondering how they have navigated the inherent alto trombone intonation problems.
Brian D. Hinkley - Player, Teacher, Technician and Trombone Enthusiast
timothy42b
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Re: Shires Bell-Tuning Alto

Post by timothy42b »

harrisonreed wrote: Mon Jun 15, 2020 5:35 pm

I've noticed that the G partial on the ones I've tried needs to be crunched in towards F# pretty badly, so that the G needs to pulled way out, and F is pulled way in from the bell. And a general tendency to go flat around Bb4 and get worse the higher you go.

pBone mini is like that too. High Bb in 1st is unusable with the tuning slide all the way in. Not sure that makes it TIS though!
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Re: Shires Bell-Tuning Alto

Post by bbocaner »

I had a shires TIS alto that generally tuned pretty good but the 5th partial is always high on every alto, and my shires TIS was no exception -- and the 6th partial was uncomfortably low on my shires which was more annoying. Replaced it with a Rath R11Z which I'm super happy with.

I tried the bell tuning shires briefly but I don't really remember what I thought of it.
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harrisonreed
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Re: Shires Bell-Tuning Alto

Post by harrisonreed »

bbocaner wrote: Tue Jun 16, 2020 11:12 am I had a shires TIS alto that generally tuned pretty good but the 5th partial is always high on every alto, and my shires TIS was no exception -- and the 6th partial was uncomfortably low on my shires which was more annoying. Replaced it with a Rath R11Z which I'm super happy with.

I tried the bell tuning shires briefly but I don't really remember what I thought of it.
That must've been within the last year or so. I think the first hint of one they made was on their FB page from the tech who made it, less than a year ago. She said "made for the man himself! Joseph Alessi's in bell tuning alto trombone! First I've ever made" or something along those lines. Maybe the one in the Q series is different from this:

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_ ... %2As%2As-R
bbocaner
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Re: Shires Bell-Tuning Alto

Post by bbocaner »

Yes, they had one at the American trombone workshop exhibits at the beginning of March. Everyone was already a little worried about the virus so I didn’t try a lot of instruments...
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