seeking info on Holton basses and tenors

[Lastbone]

Hi all, I wonder if one or more of you know a couple things about Holton 180, 183 and 158 horns.

First, is there any difference in the 183 and 158 bell sections, or is the 183 just a 158 with a bass slide?

Second, is the 180 bass slide compatible with the 158 bell?

I ask because I'm a very long time bass player, and I'm finding the .547 tenors a bit too tight and I'm looking for something in between the bass and tenor.

Thanks, I really appreciate the wealth of knowledge I can tap into here.

[BGuttman]

158 is a tenor, You may be able to plug a 183 slide in, but I'm not sure of the result.

169 (very old model), 183, and 185 are all single trigger basses.

180 is a dependent dual trigger. Older ones came with a bar connecting both valves so you needed to shift your thumb to press one or both.

181 is an independent dual trigger.

[Posaunus]

I'm looking for something in between the bass and tenor.

Well, most large tenor trombones have 0.547" slide bores. But that's "too tight" for Lastbone.
[I wonder if the tightness is related to his Bach 42, which has an undersized rotary valve, and does indeed feel "tight" to some players.]

Most bass trombones (including Lastbone's Conn 73H and Holton TR180) have 0.562" bores.

There's not much in between, except perhaps an Olds O-25, which has a 0.554" slide bore and slightly larger F-attachment tubing.

One option would be to try a 0.547" tenor with a less-resistant valve / more open F-attachment.
Another would be to get a dual-bore 0.547"/0.562" slide for his large-bore tenor.

Or perhaps Lastbone should be trying different mouthpieces or leadpipes to "open things up."

I don't think his solution would be found in any of these Holton trombones.

[chromebone]

The 183 is a bass bell with a 9” rim, it’s has a bigger throat than a 158. I don’t think a Holton bass slide will fit a Holton Tenor. Holton slides are barely interchangeable between the same model: Holton was notoriously inconsistent with their slide tenon sizes and threads.

The Holton that would fit your bill would be a duo bore TR 159. It has a .547-.559 bore. A true “in between” horn.

[modelerdc]

That "tightness" that tenors have goes hand in hand with the more focused brilliant tone of the tenor trombone. The best thing, and cheaper than changing equipment is to learn to play the tenor trombone as a different though related instrument. Careful mouthpiece choice will help, but it's really about developing a separate sound concept for each instrument. Having said that, the King 5B and the 88HK both have 9 inch bells, will take a bass slide from the same manufacturer, will play like a very large tenor with a smallish mouthpiece, and like a small bass with a not too large or deep bass trombone mouthpiece, such as a 2G or so. The 183 is as single trigger bass, same as a regular Holton bass but the bass trombone flare is terminated at only 9 inches instead of the usual 9.5 or 10. I've owned a couple, nice horns, the bell flare throat takes bass trombone mutes not tenor mutes. The Holton 158 tenor has a nine inch bell too, but it's a tenor flare out to nine inches, is visibly smaller in the throat than the 183, and takes tenor mutes.

[hyperbolica]

Holton has several "tweener" options. I owned a 156 in the 1980s that had a 547/562 slide. Straight horn. Definitely a tenor with unbelievable power. The 159 (which I'm looking to buy) also has a 547/562, but I think tends to the bass side, possibly with the bigger throated bell used on the 183, not sure. Wessex has a Super Tenor, which has a 547/562 slide, slightly larger bell, and a valve. I played a double valve prototype of this, and it was a ballz-out blitzkrieg on cellos and clarinets (although the straight 547 slide gave it certain buzz-saw properties under the staff).

I did also own an Olds S-20, with the 9" bell, 555/565 slide, and TIS. That was definitely on the bass side of things.

There is also someone around who may have available what seems like a Holton tr256 (156 w/screwbell) with a Bach 50 single valve. I'm sure this is a powerhouse as well.

I don't know about the compatibility of the slides between the Holton models. If you find something out on that front, please report back here as I'm at least interested. Probably others as well.

The specs on some of these Holtons seem to have changed over time. Some that are listed in some places as dual bores you will find with single bore slides, or different bell diameters.

You might also be able to put together a King 5B or Conn 88hK with a SL4762 slide. But those Ks are rarish.

And then get a plug in valve, and you've got a small bass that you can use as a single or a double...

[Burgerbob]

IMO, just dial your playing down and play more tenor. A tweener horn will never sound right in a section (much less on top) where people are expecting a .547 or smaller.

I'm borrowing a Bach 45 right now. I love it, it has a great sound... but if anything, it would really only work for light bass work.

[Basbasun]

IMO, just dial your playing down and play more tenor. A tweener horn will never sound right in a section (much less on top) where people are expecting a .547 or smaller.

I'm borrowing a Bach 45 right now. I love it, it has a great sound... but if anything, it would really only work for light bass work.

That is right. The Bach 45 is good in a section when the tenors play small bore.

[JohnL]

Holton has several "tweener" options. I owned a 156 in the 1980s that had a 547/562 slide. Straight horn. Definitely a tenor with unbelievable power. The 159 (which I'm looking to buy) also has a 547/562, but I think tends to the bass side, possibly with the bigger throated bell used on the 183, not sure

Those were both advertised as .547"/.559".

[elmsandr]

Yup.

The Bach 45, King 5B, Conn 88HK are the tweener bell sizes. Did Holton have a bell throat in between like this? Let's not focus on bore size or final flare diameter. The rates of taper and locations of that are the important parts.

That said, they aren't very popular for a reason. Don't get me wrong, I have two 45s and love them. It is probably my favorite horn. It just doesn't work in a lot of situations. It is also hard to play at times (tuning is different and response is.. uneven).

Cheers,
Andy

[hyperbolica]

Let's not focus on bore size or final flare diameter. The rates of taper and locations of that are the important parts.

It's easy to say that the factor you have to rely on is a factor that we don't have ready access to. Some tweeners play on the bass side, and some play on the tenor side due to a combination of factors, the bell taper being one. It would be nice if we had a taper rate or a way of characterizing the curve. But we don't have that. These days there's probably an equation that drives the manufacture of the mandrel. In the past it was probably a hand-plotted curve that might have been empirically derived, or from a plotted equation. So without real information, we have to deduce the intent of the instrument from other cues. And we're back to slide bore and flare diameter. Well, that and marketing materials.

It's absolutely possible to play horns with tweener specs in real situations. (OP was talking about Holtons). The 156 is a tenor, even with the big dual bore slide and flare diameter. You can play it in orchestra or quintet. I've done that. Great horn. Love it. It takes one hell of a set of chops to drive it, though. Some guy named Friedman in Chicago liked it pretty well. The 158 is I think a 156 w/F, but again, the specs tend to bounce around on specific examples.

The 159 is more niche. It makes a great 3rd/4th or deeper trombone voice. It's not really a bass, but you might be able to use it as a small bass in situations where you don't want that quasi-tuba sound. It's also a great horn. But you can also play it as a large tenor. I've owned both of these horns, and they are both great instruments, better in different situations.

I think we forget that not all trombone players have a garage full of horns, and can choose to dial in the hardware selection for each phrase. If I had only a Holton tr159, I would just play it, not niggle over whether it really fit the character of a Carl King march or a flute fantasy.

I know a guy who shows up to every kind of playing with a straight 547 Yamaha. Big band. Quartet. Orchestra. Background for the Honey Dos. He plays all the notes in tune and in time and sounds great. I know another one who only has a 2B Silversonic. Several who only have a 36 or a 42. It's ok. The music doesn't croak. I like messing with hardware as much as anyone, but I think it goes too far to disqualify certain horns from certain situations.

[JohnL]

Honestly, the only "tweener" horns that have ever been able to gain much traction are the Kings. On any given day, there's usually a few on eBay (right now I see five, including one misidentified as a 4BF). TR159's are significantly less common; some days there might be one or two listed, but other days there are none. And Bach 45's? If you find one at all, it'll cost you a pretty penny thanks to a combination of Bach mystique and just plain rarity.

[Finetales]

The 158 is I think a 156 w/F, but again, the specs tend to bounce around on specific examples.

The 159 is more niche.

The TR156 was the straight version of the TR159, not the TR158 (which is a much more normal large tenor). They were the same other than the valve (.547/.559 slide, large throat).

The 156/159 slide also plugs into a 183 bell according to a previous thread on here, which might also be an option for the OP.

Speaking of the 156/159, I've never had a better principal trombone sound than when I tried a TR156 at DJ's. It just felt like a tenor, not a tweener, and if I had had a spare grand I would have bought it exclusively to play principal trombone. So the results vary player to player. (In hindsight, I should have bought that instead of the Selmer Largo, which had the most addicting velvety soloistic sound, but was kinda useless in an ensemble.) But MAN, that sound.

[hyperbolica]

Thanks for straightening that out. Is there a site that lists all the Holton models? I see the Holton Loyalist which has 2 models. And the Horn-u-copia which has a lot of incomplete information. But that's all I find. Are the 180 and 181 really the only double valve basses?

[elmsandr]

Not to further de-rail this, but I think you are mis-understanding my point a little... By focusing on bore size and flare diameter, particularly when trying to look at tweener bass/tenors, misses the entire characteristic that makes those horns different. You can get a Bach 42 flare at 9", but that does not make it comparable to the TR183 at 9". One is a tenor flare, one is a bass flare. Throw in a 45 or 5B flare, that is different from either of them even if they are all 9" flares.

As for the rest, I concur, most people don't have a stable. Most trombone players probably only actually have one horn. I would advise against that horn being one of these tweeners as well, but it just doesn't matter for most of us anybody. (I'd still probably take my 9.5" flared 45 as my one if I had to choose)

Cheers,
Andy

[Finetales]

Related, but not quite on topic: It's interesting that the Benge 190F and 165F are usually left out from tweener discussions, I guess because the bells are 8.5" not 9"...but they have the larger 5B flare and a larger valve bore than the 5B. Yet nobody considers them tweeners.

Is there a site that lists all the Holton models?
...
Are the 180 and 181 really the only double valve basses?

Not as far as I know...and yes as far as I know. Even the venerable 169 is a single.

If I wasn't a Conn man I would definitely be a Holton man...I love those horns.
(I'm both, but don't tell anyone. It's a secret.)

[Lastbone]

Well, I'm glad I started this a couple days ago - you guys have really helped untangle my questions with Holtons and various tweener horns. And, as one of you mention, some of us don't have a "stable" of axes. I'm lucky enough to have two bases, but I only ever want one tenor - I just don't play tenor enough to warrant it.

I expect that I'll probably keep the 42 and look out for a 50 slide. That way it could have a bit of heft on section parts as well as the standard slide for the times I'm playing first. Let me know if you have one that you would want to convert into cash...

-Warren

[mrdeacon]

To throw some info out here...yes the TR180 and TR181 are the only true double valves basses they produced. The 169 and TR185 both have bird nest valves as available options. I don't think one was ever sold with the TR183.

So... I'm total there were 6 Holton basses. The 169, E185, TR185, TR180, TR183 and the TR181.

The TR183 is a true bass trombone. Same bell throat at the TR185. It blows and sounds like a bass. Don't let the 9" bell flair into fooling you it's a tweener horn.Supposedly it has a different leadpipe than the TR180 and TR181 but I kind of doubt that. Possibly the early pre medallion run did.

The early TR185 blows similar to the 169 but the later TR185 made after 1972 I think uses many of the same parts as the Van Haney TR180 so slightly tighter bell throat and different leadpipe. That's my theory at least.

I've played the full gabmit of Holton basses over the years and the 169 and early TR185 models are my favorite. The Van Haney TR180 horns just aren't the same... but a leadpipe swap can make those horns really special of you have the right pipe.

Ok I'm done haha. /endrant

[FOSSIL]

Mike Suter would have mentioned the 269 which was a two valve development of the 169...just a few made. I have a 185 spec 183 ! As I understand, when Holton started up the 183, which had a longer slide than the previous models and thus a shorter bell section , they decided to use the remaining 185 parts up and simply stamped finished horns 183, though those first 183s were pure 185.....confused? so am I .
That 183/185 may be for sale...it's in the US.

Chris

[mrdeacon]

Mike Suter would have mentioned the 269 which was a two valve development of the 169...just a few made. I have a 185 spec 183 ! As I understand, when Holton started up the 183, which had a longer slide than the previous models and thus a shorter bell section , they decided to use the remaining 185 parts up and simply stamped finished horns 183, though those first 183s were pure 185.....confused? so am I .
That 183/185 may be for sale...it's in the US.

Chris

Really? I had no idea there was a different bell to slide ratio on the TR183! I swear all the ones I've played have been normal... Possible I just never noticed! I swear you learn something new every day on these forums!

Chris I'm sending you a email about that horn

[pjanda1]

I know I'm resurrecting an old thread, but does anybody know if the tenon on a Holton Tr-156/159/256/259 (mine is a 256 marked as a 156) will fit a 158 or 150 slide? Mine is a dual bore (I hear not all were), and I'm interested in trying my (screw) bell section on a straight .547 slide. Maybe I should pull and Edwards slide out of the closet, but my 8H slides do not fit, even by friction.

Per some of the comments above, I completely concur that the 156/159/256/259 is NOT a tweener. It sounds and feels like a true tenor--just a monster of a tenor that takes a good bit of air and strength! Yeah, the low register is great (without a valve). But, my 156/256 sounds and feels like what it was meant for--a principal part in a big loud orchestra in a giant dead hall. It is a great, under-appreciated instrument. Interestingly, the tuning slide is nearly identical in size to an Elkhart 8H. The neck pipe is actually a teensy bit smaller, despite the larger tenon. The shape of my screw bell flare (mine is 8.5" OD) is straight up tenor, arguably more so than a Bach 42. Fortunately for enthusiast collectors like me, the market for a straight tenors built for big orchestras and big halls before decent valves existed is understandably small.

Paul

[Tbarh]

Related, but not quite on topic: It's interesting that the Benge 190F and 165F are usually left out from tweener discussions, I guess because the bells are 8.5" not 9"...but they have the larger 5B flare and a larger valve bore than the 5B. Yet nobody considers them tweeners.

Is there a site that lists all the Holton models?
...
Are the 180 and 181 really the only double valve basses?

Not as far as I know...and yes as far as I know. Even the venerable 169 is a single.

If I wasn't a Conn man I would definitely be a Holton man...I love those horns.
(I'm both, but don't tell anyone. It's a secret.)

I just bought a cheap 165F bell to use in my «frankentenor» because i wanted it to have a bell that matched my huge pre-8H 1920 Conn…If the 165F bell taper are larger than a standard 8H/88H ,its almost to small to see with the bare eye,and is completely dwarfed by my 1920 Conn «Symphony-large»..Lesson learned

[Posaunus]

Related, but not quite on topic: It's interesting that the Benge 190F and 165F are usually left out from tweener discussions, I guess because the bells are 8.5" not 9"...but they have the larger 5B flare and a larger valve bore than the 5B. Yet nobody considers them tweeners.

I assume a "tweener" is a tenor-bordering-on-bass trombone?

The Benge 165F and 190F are definitely large-bore tenors (with some nice improvements over the King 4BF by Chuck Ward and Stan Matras). Nice trombones (I love my 165F - great alternate to my Conn 88H), but definitely not "tweeners!"

[Finetales]

I didn't expect a post of mine from 3 years ago to be replied to like I wrote it yesterday, but here we are!

Related, but not quite on topic: It's interesting that the Benge 190F and 165F are usually left out from tweener discussions, I guess because the bells are 8.5" not 9"...but they have the larger 5B flare and a larger valve bore than the 5B. Yet nobody considers them tweeners.

The Benge 165F and 190F are definitely large-bore tenors (with some nice improvements over the King 4BF by Chuck Ward and Stan Matras). Nice trombones (I love my 165F - great alternate to my Conn 88H), but definitely not "tweeners!"

Yet I've seen many people on here call the 5B (which uses the same bell mandrel, just 9" instead of 8.5" and smaller F attachment tubing) a "tweener" horn, or even a "small bass". That's my point. If the 165F/190F are large bore tenors, so is the 5B. If the 5B is a "tweener", so are the 165F/190F. You can't have one or the other!

(And I agree with you...they're all just large bore tenors.)

[Posaunus]

(And I agree with you...they're all just large bore tenors.)

So is (I allege) my Olds O-25 (0.554" bore, 0.565" bore F-attachment, single rotor, 8.5" bell), designed (he said) by Robert Marsteller when he was principal trombone of the Los Angeles Philharmonic. With the right mouthpiece, it's a full-throated large-bore orchestral tenor trombone!

[hyperbolica]

Since we seem to be picking this up again, I did finally get another tr159, and I've been using it like a small bass. The bottom slide is "bass territory", the top slide is tenor (it seems like there were some of these that were just straight 547, though). The bell throat is slightly bigger than my 88h, and much smaller than my Kanstul bass. With a large-ish mouthpiece (DE J cup, or 1 1/2G), it sounds good well into the pedals. It's currently in the shop getting a plug in valve fitted to it.

The thing to remember is that double plug bass bones get used a LOT for 3rd parts that are mainly on the staff. It's just too much. Once you start using a "small bass" you realize it does most of what you've been using a full on bass to do. The two valves, a bass bell throat and a 2G or bigger turn out to be more important than a huge bell and big bore slide. My Kanstul really sounds best under low Bb (bottom of staff). I usually use the 159 unless there are a lot of notes that double valves make easier (low D or lower).

I like the Holton vibe, although I've never owned one I kept for more than a couple of years. A 180 might change that, but I don't need a 180 at this point. Maybe the 159 with the plug in sticks around for a while.

[Finetales]

The thing to remember is that double plug bass bones get used a LOT for 3rd parts that are mainly on the staff. It's just too much.

If you're talking about 3rd (out of 4) tenor-bass parts in Mahler 2 and things like that, sure. But proper 3rd (out of 3) bass trombone parts for orchestral works (excepting earlier works like the Mozart Requiem, depending on what 1st and 2nd are using) should be played on a bass trombone...doesn't necessarily have to be a double. "Mainly on the staff" = bass vocalist range, and is the bass trombone's most idiomatic register. I would hate to hear the ending to Kalinnikov 1 (all in the staff, plus one C just above it) on any kind of tenor.

But I digress...too much performance practice debate in an instrument thread!

[ithinknot]

The 159 is great. Seems to work well with anything between a DE E cup and a 1.5G - different sounds, but all seem like they'd have a use - so there must be some good ideas in the leadpipe.

Formally, it's nothing other than a tenor. It's a normal tenor tuning slide, and the bell taper isn't much of an outlier even if the throat is marginally larger than some others. But there are definitely a few things about it that make it a better "3rd" than a lot of tenors - and which also explain why it seems to have a significantly different character to the 156 despite being "the 156 with a valve", which is absolutely what it is parts-wise.

The valve wrap is large (somewhere around .585") and the long slide receiver tapers down to the (pretty tiny) rotor - bored out in steps, not reamed to a smooth taper - and then the neckpipe tapers back up again afterwards, producing something more like a real venturi rather than a sudden roadblock. I imagine the motivation was still a lack of interest/willingness to make a bigger valve, but this seems quite clever on a budget, and it plays surprisingly well. Unbraced TS probably loosens things up a bit, too.

The 156, on the other hand, has the sort of neckpipe you see on a straight 36 or 42, starting around .525 just after the .559 lower leg, which explains a lot of its "principal horn that happens to have big slide" vibe.

Of course, Holton is Holton, so the 156 and 159 bell positions are almost a full inch different relative to your face.

[JohnL]

Yet I've seen many people on here call the 5B (which uses the same bell mandrel, just 9" instead of 8.5" and smaller F attachment tubing) a "tweener" horn, or even a "small bass". That's my point. If the 165F/190F are large bore tenors, so is the 5B. If the 5B is a "tweener", so are the 165F/190F. You can't have one or the other!

(And I agree with you...they're all just large bore tenors.)

The modern 5B is definitely more tenor than bass; it shares a LOT more DNA with the 4BF than it does with the old 1480 Symphony model.

One of these days we really need to gather up some measurements to see just where the different bell designs fall on the continuum. Of course, we'd need some sort of standard for how and where to take the measurements first.

[ithinknot]

One of these days we really need to gather up some measurements to see just where the different bell designs fall on the continuum. Of course, we'd need some sort of standard for how and where to take the measurements first.

But the most easily obtained measurements don't really explain that much. For individual interest, you'd get a better picture just from comparing mute fit.

For formal "what's a tenor, what's a bass" discussions I think tuning slide/J-bend dimensions are the real dividing line. I'm not talking about musical/situational usage, obviously. The bow taper is more consequential than anything that happens further out.

[JohnL]

But the most easily obtained measurements don't really explain that much. For individual interest, you'd get a better picture just from comparing mute fit.

If you could standardize on a specific make/model of mute that was consistent, that actually wouldn't be a bad start- but you'd need to get one sample of said specific mute into the hands of each contributor, and it would have to be new (or at least nearly new) so as to ensure that the corks weren't worn/compressed.

For formal "what's a tenor, what's a bass" discussions I think tuning slide/J-bend dimensions are the real dividing line.

That's definitely and area of interest and is one of the major areas where the modern 5B and the old 1480 differ; the 1480's bore increases much more rapidly coming out of the valve.

[Finetales]

The modern 5B is definitely more tenor than bass; it shares a LOT more DNA with the 4BF than it does with the old 1480 Symphony model.

Yep! I used to have a 1480 and while I could force it to pretend to be a tenor (which I did, mercilessly, in undergrad), it was hard work. It was much happier as a bass. I wish I never had to sell it...I've done a few reduced orchestra gigs where it would have been perfect on the bass part.

[Alexandre]

Can't find any information about the TR555F , other than: large bore.

[dbwhitaker]

I don't know about the compatibility of the slides between the Holton models. If you find something out on that front, please report back here as I'm at least interested. Probably others as well.

My TR-158 and a TR-159, both from the 1980s, have slides that are interchangeable.

My TR-180 and a TR-183, both from the 1970s, have slides that are interchangeable and practically identical. I can barely tell the slides apart. (I believe my TR-183 is the "185 spec 183" mentioned earlier in this thread that Chris used to own.)

I find it interesting that the TR-158 and TR-159 are so different in terms of wrap shape and bell brace position given that they were manufactured in the same era. Is there any significant reason for this or is it just one of those things ? TR-158 is on the left, TR-159 is on the right.

Holton_TR158_L_TR159_R.jpg

[CarlVicVogel]

Hi All

Please don't overlook the TR-181 as an option. It is independent, but easy to play for someone going from a Bach 42BO (like myself).
Carl