K&H Bart Van Lier trombones

[RJMason]

Seems to be a couple different options on them, .480/.488,.500, .512, .512 w F. They look very inspired by Conn/Minick/Williams grip.

Besides their namesake, I’ve only seen Ryan Keberle play the .512 which he sounds GREAT on!

Wondering if anyone owns or has tried these particular horns?

[Elow]

I’ve always wondered what he plays on, but you mentioned something about him not playing it. Or maybe i’m reading it wrong.

[Fidbone]

Bart played for many years on a King 3B Silversonic until K&H developed their model with him.

I've played/tried the .480/488 and .500 in the past and thought the .500 was a fantastic instrument.
I've not tried the newer models with the funny counterweights though but I can imagine they are an improvement on the older models.
A lot of guys over here in lil ol Europe play them and they are a very popular choice although in the UK Rath, King, Bach, Conn and Yamaha still dominate.

[Doug Elliott]

I have also tried the .480/488 and it's just too small for me. I don't think I've tried the.500 but I imagine it would be great. The .512 is nice but sort of an odd size, I'm not sure what he had in mind for that one.

As I recall, the slides and bells are not clearly marked which size they are, so trying them can be a bit confusing. The tenons are all the same so you can put together wrong combinations without realizing it.

[Basbasun]

I played the 500 for some time, great horn! But actually I did not like the slide grip, did not get used to it. That did not fit my way of holding the slide at all.

[Pre59]

I've have two 480/88's a "Basic" and a "Personal".

The Basic model has a heavy (nickel) slide by modern standards but I think that it's also what makes the horn work having such a small bore. I've got the two lead pipes, identical shaped, one in brass and the other in sterling silver.

It was hearing Ilja Reijngoud play (Basic) that got me interested in trying one, and I bought the Basic untested from Thomann.de knowing that I could send it back if they didn't suit.

The Personal model has a lighter bronze slide, larger bell and adjustable balance weights, and I only need to use the larger one.

Tone wise, they play thick at low volumes, point without rasping when loud, but with a tighter low range. Blends and leads over saxes, harmonises under trumpets, has a well defined harmonic series with the higher partials available down the slide. (High Bb in 3rd etc.)

The build is solid with a really good lacquer finish, no red rot and after 8 years the Basic has little signs of wear.

Not all round horns, but they suit my needs, but It may be that the .500 is a better bet for most band players. K+H may be trying to carve out their own niche, rather than competing in a crowded market of lighter instruments.

[Kevbach33]

If there were a section of Kuhnl & Hoyer trombones in a big band...

Lead on .480/.488, small or big bell;
Solo on .500;
3rd on .512 with or without F attachment.
(Insert bass choice here)

That'd probably make a pretty killer sound.

The .512 is nice but sort of an odd size, I'm not sure what he had in mind for that one.

Spiritual successor to the extremely rare Bach 26, perhaps? (The Bach specs were .515" [very unusual] for the slide bore and an 8" bell. Noah at the Brass Ark sold one some time ago...) Sorta kinda joking on this one, as it's most likely just coincidence.

Though, notice the bore sizes of the series... Increments of .012" from one model to the next. That HAS to be intentional.

I'd love to give a .512 w/ F a whirl. Seems like the perfect trombone for big band 3rd book!

[Posaunus]

Hmm ...
0.488" = 12.4mm
0.500" = 12.7mm
0.512" = 13.0mm
0.524" = 13.3mm
0.547" = 13.9mm
0.563" = 14.3mm

[Finetales]

Wish there were more horns out there in those intermediate 13.0mm and 13.6mm sizes. Would be interesting to see how they compared to the usual .508, .525, and .547 horns by the same manufacturer. I'd love to try a 3BF "half +" in .512.

[Kevbach33]

Wish there were more horns out there in those intermediate 13.0mm and 13.6mm sizes. Would be interesting to see how they compared to the usual .508, .525, and .547 horns by the same manufacturer.

I'm of the thought that the 13.0mm (.512") bore for a trombone, perhaps with F attachment, would be perfect for a big band 3rd book. I agree that there should be more of them.

I also think it would be intriguing if a model was developed with a .536" (13.6mm) bore. Some principal players could possibly appreciate the added clarity in the upper register compared to their .547" setup without jumping all the way to .525" and (possibly) needing to change mouthpieces. It could also work as a 4th bone to bridge the smaller tenors to the bass in a 5-part work. Maybe there wouldn't be as many .525/.547" instruments out there? Conversely, more .536/.547" would also appear...

My guess as to why not is leadpipes. There'd need to be R&D, which is time and money, especially for an odd size like these. And what's out there? There's not much for .512", other than "growing" a .508" pipe (or using K&H's for reference), and .536" would be limited to stellar examples of the H. N. White Symphony models (1480) at best.

Another question for the .536" bore: What size would the F attachment be? .547" or .562"? Again, more R&D.

I'd love to try a 3BF "half +" in .512.

Why not just give the 3B/3BF a .512" bore? That'd give them more separation from the 2B+ and bring them closer in line with the 3B+. (And bring back the 3B+F as well!)

Oh, wait. It wouldn't be a 3B/F anymore.

[biggiesmalls]

I bought a straight BVL .512 from Irvin at Nashville ITF in 2011, played it for the better part of two years, then took it to ITF Columbus in 2013 for Irv to use as a demo. The horn was a special order that happened to make it into Irv's hands, with a gold brass flare and lightweight nickel outer slide.

Practically every pro who played it at the festival side-by-side with the yellow brass BVL .512 greatly preferred the gold brass/LT setup, which was just a much different animal. The horn had instantaneous response at all dynamics, spot-on intonation (except in 7th, read below) that was consistent through all partials, and lots of available color but with very tight slotting (typically mutually exclusive traits IME). The slotting alone took my lip slur speed, big interval jumps and high register to another level, and I made real advances in my playing that I was later able to carry over to other (often less responsive) horns.

The outer slide on this horn is still the lightest metal tenor outer slide (168g) on the "Outer slide weigh-in" thread from TTF, and the action was the best of any slide I've ever owned. Very tight tolerances, so it only liked SOM Rapid Comfort. The craftsmanship, fit and finish were all superlative.

In the end, I sold the horn only because 7th position was non-existent, and I'm one of those players who finds a lot of utility in a good usable 7th position. Too bad, because the straight sections of the legs on the slide crook were over 2cm long, so nearly 2cm could be added to the effective length of the slide by cutting down the legs of the crook and lengthening the inner and outer tubes by 2cm, which would have made 7th in tune. The gold brass bell and nickel slide are already special order, so if I were ever to buy another, I would definitely specify this slide modification in the order.

Otherwise, it was a really magical horn in a lot of ways, and half a decade later there are times when I still have seller's remorse. If I ever decide to sell everything off and own only one horn, a BVL .512 F-attachment with gold brass flare and LT slide is still at the top of my list of possibilities,

[Fidbone]

FWIW There's a reason why the well known makers make the common bore sizes they do.

Because they work!!!!

[Finetales]

FWIW There's a reason why the well known makers make the common bore sizes they do.

Because they work!!!!

Judging by the responses in this thread, the BVL .512 works just fine. King made the 1485 Symphony with a .536 bore and that worked, and Reynolds made trombones in .515 and .520 and those worked too.

[Doug Elliott]

It can be challenging to find a mouthpiece that works well with odd bore sizes.

[Finetales]

It can be challenging to find a mouthpiece that works well with odd bore sizes.

That's fair. It just seems to me that as .458-.525 all have the same mouthpiece shank (some .525s and .525 pipes excluded), it shouldn't be too much of a stretch to find a suitable small shank mouthpiece for a .512 if one is serious about playing one. It would probably be easier than finding an agreeable Remington mouthpiece for a stock Elkhart 88H!

[biggiesmalls]

It can be challenging to find a mouthpiece that works well with odd bore sizes.

I used Doug's "3" shanks (open backbore for .508 horns) with XT D/E/G cups on the BVL .512 GLT and was very happy with the results. Compared to the DE setup, other small shank mouthpieces with tighter backbores didn't bring out the best in the horn.

[Crazy4Tbone86]

FWIW There's a reason why the well known makers make the common bore sizes they do.

Because they work!!!!

Yes, the sizes work. However, the origins of many of the common bore sizes found in American trombones are simple fractions of an inch. .500 bore is an obvious one, that's a half inch. The .562 bore (bass trombone slide bore and F-attachment bore for many large bore tenors) originated from 9/16 of an inch. The .593 bore (attachment bore size for many bass trombones) originated from 19/32 of an inch. The list goes on and on.

Some of the American bore sizes were derived from outside diameters that were a fraction. For example, I heard a lecture on brass acoustics where the presenter believed that the origin of the .547 bore was an outside diameter of 37/64 inch (.578) and the metal gauge was approximately 27 gauge. That would put the inside diameter very close to .547. It can get complicated. If you doodle with the math many of our established bore sizes are directly linked to simple fractions.

[BGuttman]

One other point is that brass tubing comes in standard sizes. In the US it's usually based on inch sizes and in the rest of the world it's based on metrics. If the diameter of the tube you want to use is not a standard size you need to find a way to create it using drawing apparatus (an expensive operation).

[Fidbone]

FWIW There's a reason why the well known makers make the common bore sizes they do.

Because they work!!!!

Judging by the responses in this thread, the BVL .512 works just fine. King made the 1485 Symphony with a .536 bore and that worked, and Reynolds made trombones in .515 and .520 and those worked too.

Of course some might well work, however in my playing experience for many years as a Pro I've never encountered any of my colleagues on anything other than the popular bore sizes.
Tooling up for the"Strange" sizes is harder than you think for manufacturers and there are not many that will take a chance as it can be costly. Especially if you tool up, make a horn and then the buyer/player decides they prefer one of the regular bore sizes!