Help with Identification

[pfcastor]

This is a picture of the 1st Bass Trombone I played starting in 1969. It was the university's horn that I played for about a year before saving enough cash to buy my own horn. I hated it. When ever I played FF below the staff the horn buzzed and rattled. I first thought I just had a bad horn but all 4 of the horns the university owned did the same thing.

It was so long ago I that I don't recall the make of model of the horn. Looking at the picture, I though it might be a conn or holton but the position of the bottom brace in relation to the Rotar and the trigger mounted on the brace are very different than any of the pictures I could find of conn or holton models of that era.

Any Idea what this is?

sorry for the fuzzy picture. I've enlarged it a bit and it is all I have from 1969.

[Burgerbob]

Honestly, I'm at a loss. I'm guessing some sort of Olds, but no models I can find have the valve that far back on the gooseneck. The Holton 169 doesn't look quite like that either.

[pompatus]

It looks an awful lot like a Holton TR150 to my eye, based on the brace/trigger location and the shape of the mouthpiece receiver area. Do you remember any details about the horn, like bore/bell size/material?

[FOSSIL]

It looks an awful lot like a Holton TR150 to my eye, based on the brace/trigger location and the shape of the mouthpiece receiver area. Do you remember any details about the horn, like bore/bell size/material?

I think you got it. Holton large bore tenor 9" bell.

Chris

[Kevbach33]

Yeah, definitely a large tenor from Holton. I have a 168 that looks remarkably like that.

I think the real question is whether it's a 168 or TR150. When was the latter introduced? (My 168 is about a 1962 based on the serial of 350xxx according to the Holton Loyalist site.)

[pfcastor]

I think you’re correct. It does look like a Holton TR-150 or TR-168. Do these models use a large shank mouthpiece?

I don't remember any details about the horn specs other than it seemed a lot larger, heavier with a much large bell than the tenor I played I high school. I switched to bass at when I started playing in the university Jazz Band. I also switched from a Bach 6 1/2 AL to a Bach 1 1/4 G mouthpiece.

The University passed it off as a bass not a large tenor. I was only 18 and didn’t have much experience with Bass Trombones. Maybe that's why I had issues when playing down in the lower bass range.

It also explains why playing the bass parts became significantly easier after I bought my own horn. I replaced it with an Olds S-22 George Roberts model (50 years later and I still have the Olds S-22).

Thanks for the help.

[Neo Bri]

Like the others said, definitely a Holton...probably a 150. I had one that I thought was a good player. My student now has it and enjoys it.

[Crazy4Tbone86]

Definitely a Holton. The flagship Holton large bore at that time was the TR-150. It came in both a yellow brass and rose brass model, both had 9" bells and took a bass shank mouthpiece. I believe the rose brass model is still produced by the Conn-Selmer's Holton division.

In the late 60's and early 70s, Holton also produced an "intermediate" trombone model TR-380 that looked exactly like the TR-150 in yellow brass. I really don't know what the difference between a 150 and 380 was because you could not tell them apart unless you looked at the model number/serial number area. The 380 was a fantastic player. My high school owned a couple of TR-380 horns and they both played better than my personal horn at the time.

I loved that TR-380 model and have been looking for one for a few years. Ebay presently has one on sell, but it looks a little torn up around the rotor.

[Crazy4Tbone86]

Honestly, I'm at a loss. I'm guessing some sort of Olds, but no models I can find have the valve that far back on the gooseneck. The Holton 169 doesn't look quite like that either.

The old Holtons were all made that way with the rotor way back. They actually put a piece of brass tubing between the slide receiver and the rotor housing. I don't know if that short piece of tubing was tapered or not. If it was, the old Holtons essentially had two goosenecks!

[CalgaryTbone]

My High School had a Holton (student model) .547 bore that looked like that. 9" bell, and it played OK. I used it during marching season, so I wouldn't have to drag my 88H out on the field.

Jim Scott

[Crazy4Tbone86]

Interesting that people are not that impressed with some of the old Holton models. I'm wondering what condition they were in.

I was impressed with the TR-380s that I played. Then again, the Holtons that were owned by my high school were in immaculate condition even though they were 8-10 years old when I used them. I doubt they had more than 20 hours of playing on them prior to my time with them.

[Stan72]

Yeah, definitely a large tenor from Holton. I have a 168 that looks remarkably like that.

I think the real question is whether it's a 168 or TR150. When was the latter introduced? (My 168 is about a 1962 based on the serial of 350xxx according to the Holton Loyalist site.)

Hello. I also own and play a TR168, manufactured in 1965. I purchased it used in 1971. Finding history or detail regarding the 168 has been difficult to find. I was told years ago that Frank Crisafulli might have commissioned this model from Holton as I purchased this from one of his students. I have no verification of that "story". Do you have any background you might be able to share regarding history or specs? What is different between this and the 150? I love the way this trombone plays and wish to share the background with others when I stop playing and migrate this fine instrument to it's next life. Thanks for your consideration!

[Kevbach33]

Hello. I also own and play a TR168, manufactured in 1965. I purchased it used in 1971. Finding history or detail regarding the 168 has been difficult to find. I was told years ago that Frank Crisafulli might have commissioned this model from Holton as I purchased this from one of his students. I have no verification of that "story". Do you have any background you might be able to share regarding history or specs? What is different between this and the 150? I love the way this trombone plays and wish to share the background with others when I stop playing and migrate this fine instrument to it's next life. Thanks for your consideration!

I'd give more history details and the differences between the 168 and TR150 if I could/knew. All I know about my own is the physical specs and date of production.

Specs are .547" nickel silver slide with sleeves and yellow brass crook, that set back traditional wrap F attachment, yellow brass reversed (read: forward) tuning slide, and a two piece 9" rose (red?) brass bell with I believe an unsoldered bead.

My 168 isn't in great shape, but it sounds great with a mouthpiece that's not too deep, though I can't compare it with anything since it's the first large tenor I've owned.

[Stan72]

Thank you for your quick feedback! If I learn anything specific in the future, I'll be sure to share it with you.

[Stan72]

Note: Credits and thanks go out to the www.saxophone.org web site for their published collection of past instrument company catalogs that provided detailed information to support the following history regarding the Holton model 168.

The trombone in the original photo appears to be either a Holton 168 or it's successor; the Holton/Leblanc TR150 as these had an identical appearance during the first years of TR150 production beginning around 1966.

The Holton model 168 trombone was one in a series of Holton trombone models originally called "bass trombones", eventually changing the model description to "artist or symphonic tenor" models after the development of the model 169 "Kleinhammer" bass trombone series in 1962, which evolved into the TR186 model in 1965 under Holton/Leblanc. These larger .562" bore models became the new bass trombone line for Holton/Leblanc. At this point in 1965, Holton stopped referring to .547" bore models as bass trombones in their literature.

Per a caption included with the photo of Frank Crisafulli in the 1960 Holton instrument catalog, Crisafulli, legendary trombonist with the Chicago Symphony Orchestra, played a Holton 168. He consulted with Holton on the design evolutions of this model into its essentially equivalent TR150 model in 1966 when Leblanc instituted model numbering changes at Holton. He was well-known for favoring the TR150 in his later playing years. The model 168 was originally launched with a .531" bore from 1956-58. It was enhanced to a .547" bore in 1958/59 reportedly at Crisafulli's suggestion.

Here is the "genealogy" of the Holton 168 trombone based on research from the old Holton instrument catalogs:

The Holton Instrument catalogs describe these following trombones to be "bass trombones"
1931-1939 Symphony 68 (with F valve), Symphony 66 (no F valve), Symphony 69 (short run; with F, E valves)
1939-1955 Symphony name dropped; shortened to model 68 (with F valve) and model 66 (no F valve)
1956-1966 New model 168 (with F valve) and model 166 (no F valve) launched. Models 68 /66 are dropped.

The Holton-Leblanc and Selmer-Conn catalogs describe these trombones to now be "symphonic tenor" trombones
1965-2015 Leblanc renumbering; new TR150 (with F valve) and TR155 (no F valve). Models 168/166 dropped.
2008-2018 New TR158, like TR150 using “traditional” F rotor stroke vs TR150 short stroke. TR150 phased out.
2015-today New TR160, with TR158 specs, adding open wrap, traditional stroke F attachment. TR158 dropped.

[Kenbo]

TR107 Tenor Trombone. There are images online but no way to ID the Trombone.
Rose bell, nickel slide outer brass tuning slide and slide hook.

It plays superbly the tone is fabulous. Can any one help me fing more information. This bone came from the Welsh Guards