Bach Small Bore/LT16M questions

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RJMason
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Bach Small Bore/LT16M questions

Post by RJMason »

I love playing a Bach 36B. It just works for me and I have two, one regular, and one with LT slide and G bell. Four horns in one, triggers to access all registers.

However, I’m looking for a straight small bore horn as another “paintbrush” to work with. I’m thinking about going for the Watrous model, LT16M.

Im looking for a small bore that will that can cut and project with that Bach sound, just a little smaller. Lighter and easy to play.

Questions: Wondering if anyone is still playing on horns like the LT16M regularly? I hardly saw them for many years, but maybe I wasn’t looking close enough. Feels like people have moved on, while Conn 6Hs (.500 I know) and King 3Bs along with Rath, Shires, have become prevalent.

Has anyone found a Bach small bore that overcame modern volume levels on stage with an amplified band, without just burying the mic in the bell?
I’ve loved the sound of old small Bach’s, have tried and played many NYs (6,8,12), but they just don’t project in a loud amplified setting for me. I borrowed a NY 16 (dual bore) for a gig and during the trombone solo I couldn’t hear myself unless I got super close on the mic. I havent experienced this issue with a 36. Maybe a more modern Bach small bore will work better than a NY from the 30s?

Thanks for your input!
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dukesboneman
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Re: Bach Small Bore/LT16M questions

Post by dukesboneman »

I`m primarily Bach player, I have 2 - 12`s, Lt16MG and 36 & 36B. I love my Lt16MG, it has a glorious dark, but I`ve found for some Big Band work it`s just too round and dark. I suppose if it were my only horn, I would adjust and make it work. My go small horn for the 10 years has been my Lt 12G. Dark enough but it still cuts. Great upper range. Now a friend has a 16M and with the yellow Bell it does have a bit more edge. As far as Bach`s not projecting, I`ve never had that problem. What size mouthpiece are you using? That makes a difference too.
RJMason
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Re: Bach Small Bore/LT16M questions

Post by RJMason »

I have owned and played Kings, Conns, Raths, and while enjoying those horns, in my head I prefer the Bach sound, feel, and blow. But I have found Kings and Conns just don’t get as lost in a horn section as the small Bach’s I have tried (NY 16, Mount Vernon 12) on gig settings. Maybe I just didn’t find the right Bach, or maybe it’s the mouthpiece!!

What do you think works best? I’m used to playing 6.5A sized pieces. Maybe if I had a different cup with a similar rim (which is comfortable for me) it would work better on these instruments?
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Burgerbob
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Re: Bach Small Bore/LT16M questions

Post by Burgerbob »

I found something similar with my 16M, it seemed to not quite have the presence playing in a section. I know some of them aren't that way, though.

The 16M is also much, much quirkier than a 36, which is a pretty straight-ahead instrument to play IMO. My 16M had a flat high Bb- it centered a good 20 cents low in 1st position. The low range was a whole different beast than the rest of the horn.

I think you have to find a good one, and have a good leadpipe in it.

Funny thing, I'm looking for one myself, even with my previous experience (and owning a couple 3Bs and a 36K).
Aidan Ritchie, LA area player and teacher
bimmerman
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Re: Bach Small Bore/LT16M questions

Post by bimmerman »

LT16Ms vary a ton. There are two main periods to be aware of, which do play a bit differently-- pre mid-80s where the bells are just stamped 16, and post mid-80s bells stamped with 16M, which have a larger gooseneck.

All have a quirky stock leadpipe, but common options are the Kanstul H8 pipe, Brassark pipes, etc etc. The H8 pipe helped on mine.

Many Bach smallbores have quirky slots for 3rd position Bb or tuning weirdness. I have a bunch (pre-80s lt16m, post 80s sterling plus LT16M, LT8G, 9, and an aftermarket "16B"). My Sterling horn, with the large gooseneck and H8 pipe, plays awesomely though-- solid 3rd position Bb, no weirdly out of tune upper partials (that I can remember, been a while), and a great bright lively sound. It has a distinctly different sound than the yellow/gold brass bells due to the super lightweight silver flare, but I think it does project notably better than the brass bells do.

If you're looking for a horn to not get buried in a section/by amplification though, I'm not sure I'd go with a 16 variant without trialing it. They're definitely darker and less projecting than competing models, but they do sound awesome if you have a good one. A 3B SS might be a better live/amplified instrument since you can throw all the air into it without breaking up.
droffilcal
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Re: Bach Small Bore/LT16M questions

Post by droffilcal »

I think you just have to find the right Bach. Generally speaking, I feel the same way about small bore Bach trombones and sound projection, but I have come across a couple of 16M, a dual bore 16 LT, and a couple of wonderful 12s that really had that presence at volume.

My favorite was a regular 12 that played like a mini size 42, huge sound, big core, easy blowing; I didn't know my friend was selling it, and I was so, so sad when I heard that he'd sold it to a student.
Rusty
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Re: Bach Small Bore/LT16M questions

Post by Rusty »

I’ve read that the .508 XO 1634 with Gold bell (John Fedchock model) plays like a wonderful Bach 16 without the quirks. I’ve not tried one but very keen to have a blow. I’ve played 3b silver sonics in sections before and while you can play very loud on them, I found it quite hard to hear and blend in a section...they’re very direct and projecting. I currently play a Shires MD+ which is another great .508 option if you haven’t tried one.
Vegasbound
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Re: Bach Small Bore/LT16M questions

Post by Vegasbound »

The mods for a 16m used to be pull the stubby leadpipe, put a playable one in and change the slide crook for a 3b one
baileyman
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Re: Bach Small Bore/LT16M questions

Post by baileyman »

Put a 6iv bell on your slide and chances are pretty good you'll cut through.
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