1 Valve Vs. 2 Valve Bass Trombone

[collinh123]

Hello,

What are some key differences between a 1 and 2 valve bass bone? Is there a huge difference in range, pedal tones, etc? Are pedal tones achieved as easily on a 1 valve instrument compared to a 2 valve?

[Elow]

https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php? ... le#p120835 oop

[ZacharyThornton]

Your first post in April Elow:

Bach 50 vs Holton 181
Post by Elow » Fri Apr 03, 2020 7:06 pm
I have the choice between a bach 50 with thayers and Eb and F tuning and a Holton 181 with a cut bell in my area and was wondering about the reputation on both these horns and any experiences anyones had with these.

You didn’t know the reputation of a Bach 50B or a Holton 181. How about you relax and help the new guy out.

[BGuttman]

Hello,

What are some key differences between a 1 and 2 valve bass bone? Is there a huge difference in range, pedal tones, etc? Are pedal tones achieved as easily on a 1 valve instrument compared to a 2 valve?

There is one functional difference between a 1 valve and a 2 valve bass trombone. That is the ability to play B natural below the staff. To play the note on a one valve bass trombone you need to pull the attachment tuning slide so it is in E rather than F. Modern open wrap instruments often don't have enough room on the tuning slide to do this. The 2nd valve was originally invented so you could make a rapid change from F to E to get that B natural way out in flat 7th.

The 1 valve bass is the same bore size as the 2 valve bass. Pedal notes are exactly the same, at least to trigger pedal C (which is about as far as most music goes).

The 1 valve bass uses the same mouthpiece as the 2 valve bass. Range is the same.

The 2 valve bass trombone is heavier than the 1 valve bass trombone. This becomes a factor as you get to be an old geezer like me with loss of muscle tone. In his later years George Roberts played a single valve bass trombone.

With an independent 2 valve bass trombone you can play the instrument in Bb, F, and either Gb or G (depending on the length of the 2nd valve tuning slide). The Gb or G side of the instrument can offer some interesting alternate fingerings for notes from F in the bass staff down.

[Dennis]

In his later years George Roberts played a single valve bass trombone.

George Roberts played most of his career on a single. He endorsed a couple of doubles (if my forgettery is working properly he endorsed the Olds P24G) but he said in interviews that he rarely used doubles.

In most of the orchestral canon a single is all you need. Nothing Stravinsky wrote requires a double. (In fact, a lot of Stravinsky can be played on straight Bb horn.) Bartok is the serial offender here: the Concerto for Orchestra has the notorious low B to F glissando, and The Miraculous Mandarin has a sequence of glissandi B to F to B to F to B. You need an F bass (with handle and all) or a Bb/F/E double (or I guess the Thein Bartok bass, though I've never seen one in the brass). (At one time, I thought that an F contra would work. If you put a handle on the slide so you can get down to 7th and if the slide is long enough to have a 7th position it will play the notes. Unfortunately, the timbre is wrong.)

Contemporary composers pretty much assume that the bass trombone is chromatic from somewhere around 15vb to somewhere around . As a result, if I were going in to read something new I'd pick the double rather than the single. In jazz, anything written after the mid-1960s or so will assume a double.

[Posaunus]

Thanks Bruce (and Dennis) for clear and concise answers to collinh123's question.
I expect that's exactly what he was seeking (and a bit more).

In case collinh123 doesn't know who George Roberts is and why he is mentioned so often in TromboneChat, he should do a Google search.

I (an increasingly "old geezer") am quite happy with a single valve bass trombone, though I recognize its minor limitations in playing some recent big band charts. Same bore (0.262"), same mouthpiece options, same range (with a minor exception) as most other bass trombones. Other, younger, players would disagree vociferously. (That low B can be pretty important.)

Lots of chatter on this topic in this forum, if you want to read farther.

[Burgerbob]

I will point out that there is much, much more to the bass trombone repertoire than the orchestral standards. And in a lot of that, you'll need a second valve. No way around it.

[Hobart]

From my experience of not playing either terribly much, the singles are generally cheaper than doubles and are likely made on the same assembly line, and some you can even pull out the tuning slide to get the occasional low B out. Some particular singles, like the Olds S-20 bass or the Yamaha YSL-421, I've heard from the grapevine, don't have long enough tuning slides in the F attachment to pull out for a B.
However, even in high school jazz band music, which is most of my experience, the second valve is extremely useful and will make your life a hell of a lot easier than pulling slides in and out. Like Bob said, although you may be able to use a single in a concert hall, there's a lot more to bass trombone than that.

[Thrawn22]

I will point out that there is much, much more to the bass trombone repertoire than the orchestral standards. And in a lot of that, you'll need a second valve. No way around it.

Don't forget Tom Kubis charts are RIDDLED with low B's. That's the biggest reason i need a 2nd valve. I was perfectly content with a single valve bass.

[Tremozl]

Isn't low C also a struggle with the tuning on a single valve? It is on my double if I don't play it with the 2nd valve down.

[Savio]

Hello,

What are some key differences between a 1 and 2 valve bass bone? Is there a huge difference in range, pedal tones, etc? Are pedal tones achieved as easily on a 1 valve instrument compared to a 2 valve?

There is no difference in range or pedal notes except low C and B which is achieved different. Pedal notes are achieved in the same way, no difference how easy or difficult it is. The main difference is the possibilities in slide combinations and the low C and B. The possibilities in slide combinations is larger with 2 valves. More combinations to choose from and easier access to low C and B. With practice the low C and B can sound nice on a single trigger but you need to go out to 7nt and a little further. Most players have 2 valves today. Some play single trigger. Some have both. Its a matter of personal choice. Depends on your plans and what you need for your daily playing?

Leif

[ArbanRubank]

Well, there's cost. Even very used 2-trigger horns generally cost a LOT more than single-trigger horns.

But if you want to achieve the very highest standard of fast, clean technical play on a bass in the low range, then I'm afraid a double-trigger horn is almost essential. The lower trigger notes are closer together on a double and the low B & low C notes are much more accessible. But you will have to deal with the added weight of the 2nd slide loop & valve.

I've seen plenty of instances in community bands where a double-trigger was total overkill for the part. And yet, if one wants to play professionally in today's world, especially in a symphonic setting, it would be very difficult to get taken seriously with a single-trigger. Not to say it can't be done - it has - but good luck!

Am I right?

[brtnats]

The difference is weight and options.

If you play bass for fun in amateur community groups and ensembles, you will be well served by a single-valve that pulls to E. That will get you all the notes with less weight on your shoulder.

If you play semi-professionally or professionally, where there’s more incentive to be as precise as possible, there are times where you’re going to need a double. What kind of double is up to you.

If you don’t know, double is a safer bet, but that safety comes at a price.

[Mv2541]

The difference is you can play anything thrown your way on 2 valves, while there is alot of stuff you can't really manage with only one. If you have a situation where you can make a single work for you that's cool, but I wouldn't want to only have a single if you put Schyneder on my stand.

[ArbanRubank]

Looks like I get a chicken dinner!

[hyperbolica]

You might also point out that really learning the second valve on an independent, can be a lot of work. A dependent horn means you'll only use the second trigger when you need it, but on the independent, there are a lot of alternate position scenarios you can set up to get through notey passages with less sawing. Valve combinations and second valve notes really add a lot of options that a lot of bass players don't explore very deeply. Coordination at speed with the slide and two valves takes a fair bit of practice.

Other options for making a single work, if that's what you want to do, are a plug in valve (can be removed) or an additional slide, like an E or Eb slide. With an Eb slide, you can get the C and B, but you force notes like C and B, F and E out to 6th and 7th positions. It's lighter than a double, and it gets all the notes, but you don't see it done often because of the inconvenience of 6th and 7th positions.

[MagnumH]

Paraphrased from a recent Reggie Chapman masterclass - Having two triggers really opens up a LOT of options for using the bass trombone as a melodic instrument in its own right (as opposed to merely being the lowest end of a section). Being able to use both triggers, either independently or combined, essentially gives you four trombones in one, with a whole world of alternate positions. It's akin to playing in the upper registers of a straight horn, where you don't need to move the slide as much, except you can get that freedom across the whole range of the horn once you get your triggers well and truly under control.

[bassboy]

Paraphrased from a recent Reggie Chapman masterclass - Having two triggers really opens up a LOT of options for using the bass trombone as a melodic instrument in its own right (as opposed to merely being the lowest end of a section). Being able to use both triggers, either independently or combined, essentially gives you four trombones in one, with a whole world of alternate positions. It's akin to playing in the upper registers of a straight horn, where you don't need to move the slide as much, except you can get that freedom across the whole range of the horn once you get your triggers well and truly under control.

Very well said!

[BassBoneWadie99]

I know I'm a little late to the party, but I guess I'll put in my two cents here:

In regards to to the difference between a single and double valve bass, there really isn't much of a huge difference besides being able to get a B below the staff with both valves pressed and how much they'll cost. Like Bruce has said, for single valve basses, you'll need to pull to the F-attachment slide to E or even flat E at best when you come across a low C or B respectively. Dennis is spot on that about the remark about the arrangements in orchestral and wind ensemble settings, single valves are 100% doable. From personal experience from wind ensemble, I've only encountered only a few songs that used a low C (and ultra rare for low B's.) There are some arrangements where I think play a single valve would be fun to have like The Nutcracker Suite or even Haydn's Creation to name a few.

Having a double valve bass bone (whether it be dependent or independent) makes things a whole lot easier in terms of being able to play low C and B. Lots of modern compositions of jazz charts are in the low trigger and pedal range a lot where have that second valve is handy (especially when the chart is littered with low B's and C's.) As someone that's more of a dependent Bb/F/D kind of guy, I will say that independent basses have a huge advantage in the jazz improv department where you move the slide quite a bit and playing these low F's and C's in the staff in second position with the Gb valve comes very useful in these situations. There's a person on YouTube, who goes by the name Chris Glassman, shows great examples of what they have to offer for alternate positions when doing jazz improvisation.

If you plan on doing bass trombone for serious settings and more advanced literature, then to me, a double valve bass is definitely needed. Unless it's for small community bands or ensembles, then both single valve or double valve basses will do the job just fine FWIW.

[Basbasun]

Playing wise there are no more difference than the low C and B. The biggest difference is the weight. That is one reason to play a singel valve bass. Many players have both a singel and a double. (Or more) The weight can be a problem for some. Two valves is not needed in all bands, but in some modern writings for brassbands and windbands it is good to have two valves. I use both singel and doubles.

[ChadA]

I own two bass trombones; both are independent two-valve horns. I use both professionally in orchestral, chamber music, solo, big band (occasional gigs), and when touring Broadway shows come through town. Do I "need" two valves all the time? No, but I prefer having two valves. Because they're independent and work well, I can pick and choose how and when to use each valve. Sometimes using a particular valve (or combo) gives me a slur I like or slide position pattern that cleans up a technical passage (Fountains of Rome is a great example but there are many others). Sometimes I'll choose a valve (or combo) because it produces a sound or response in various ranges/dynamics that I like (for example, a soft low C I'll play with both valves; a loud one is almost always in trigger 6th). Etc.

Could I play 95%+ of my jobs with a 1-valve horn? Sure, but I don't want to. I like the flexibility and options a second valve gives me. I like not having to change horns/mess with slides/lip things down/taken things up when a low B makes an appearance. Yes, it's a little heavier and more expensive, but I often use my second valve more than my first (I prefer low F and C in the staff in T2-2) and I prefer the flexibility it gives me.

Different strokes for different folks, of course. Your mileage may vary. See store for details. Etc.