F. Schmidt large bore

[Jimbbob]

I have come across an F. Schmidt trombone at what looks like a great price. I've searched the forum here as well as done some research. My understanding is that this brand was a "respectable" horn, good quality, up until about 2005, when it appears Brook Mays perhaps bought the name and farmed out manufacturing to China.

I have several pics. The bell shows simply F. Schmidt. No clue as to origin of manufacture. The slide shows ULW3, and a serial # 35XXX. This appears to be the "professional" model, but the price really seems too good to be true (sub $400).

I'm mainly playing my 3BF (actually on hiatus) in an amateur big band, but would like to have a large bore for the very occasional church gig.

Would appreciate anyone's insights on this brand. Thank you!

[djkennedy]

Memories are they were good

[Doug Elliott]

As far as I know it is strictly a Chinese made Brook Mays name.
A while back I was wondering the same thing and that's what I came up with.

[Jimbbob]

I definitely appreciate both perspectives. I wonder if you could both be right. The sketchy research I've seen is that this brand was taken over by Brook Mays in 2005. Good workmanship prior to that, not good afterwards. Seller has a good story, indicating it was bought new (in 2005 :/) at the recommendation of a band director.

[Doug Elliott]

If it came from Texas that's a clue

[ZacharyThornton]

Can you send some photos? I used to work for Brookmays. They had instruments made in Germany (very similar to modern Coutrois horns) and stamped F. Schmidt. Then later they changed to the horns being Chinese made. If you can just post a photo of the bell engraving I can tell you for sure what it is.

[Jimbbob]

Thanks Zachary! I've sent you an email with a few pics. I've also tried to attach them here. Thank you.

[greenbean]

There was (is?) a brass instrument maker in Germany, but not "F" Schmidt. C... I don't recall.

F Schmidt was (is?) Brooks May's house brand. They used to have B&S make them tubas! Like B&S models 103 and 3301. These are the real deal! In fact, the B&S 103 that I own is an F Schmidt stencil. I have seen trumpets that were also an obvious B&S product. But at some point they went Chinese...

[JohnL]

There was (is?) a brass instrument maker in Germany, but not "F" Schmidt. C... I don't recall.

Schmidt is a pretty common name in German-speaking countries, so there's been several. C. F. Schmidt is probably the best know; their big thing was making a double horn with a piston change valve.

[NTXbone]

I spent a lot of time in Brook Mays in the late 90s and early 2000s, knew someone who worked in the local store, and I've got an F. Schmidt bass trombone that I did some research on a while back. There were several discussions of these horns on the TromboneForum back in the day but I'm guessing those are lost.

F. Schmidt was the Brook Mays house brand. To the best of my knowledge, they created the brand name, they didn't buy it from another company. The earlier F. Schmidt instruments were made for Brook Mays in Markneukirchen, Germany, an area with a history of high-quality brass instrument manufacturing (like Elkhart, Indiana). I never did know which company actually produced them for Brook Mays, but based on some other recent posts here on TromboneChat, it looks like it may have been B&S. Sometime later, Brook Mays did source a new supplier in China for the F. Schmidt line, and while I didn't get to play any of those myself, word was they were not good.

The quality of these German-made F. Schmidt instruments was high, and several folks have found they hold their own compared to the Bach Strads they were competing against. I would consider them pro level horns. However, Brook Mays priced and marketed them as a step below the Strads, sort of a higher level step up horn, which I suspect kept the brand from developing much name recognition. The later Chinese horns probably ruined whatever good reputation the brand had built up to that point.

My F. Schmidt bass trombone is identical to the Courtois AC502BR, down to really small details like the design of the ferrules, the clear rubber valve bumpers, the valve linkage designs, the valve wraps, etc. Around that same time period (late 90s to early 2000s) there was some discussion on the TromboneForum about the Courtois factory in France having to shut down and production being moved to Germany. While I can't definitively prove it, I'm confident my F. Schmidt is the same horn produced in the same German factory as the Courtois AC502BR from that era. There are also two other bass trombones that have appeared recently in the classifieds recently that are identical to my F. Schmidt and the Courtois, but branded differently. One is branded as a B&S 3061, and the other is branded as a Gerhard Baier, a house brand for another music store chain in Utah. Those threads have some more info you might find helpful.

Regarding the large bore tenor you found for sale - I suspect it was also made in Germany. My bass has a bell marking identical to yours with no reference to country of origin. It seems that bell engravings varied a bit during that time period - I have pictures from a long-ago ebay auction of an F. Schmidt large bore tenor with the same ULW3 slide marking, serial #357XX, and a nicer bell engraving that clearly says, "Made in Germany" and the model number "S547LTD". For less than $400, if it's not trashed I'd give it a shot, I think you'll be very pleasantly surprised. I've been thrilled with my bass, it plays wonderfully.

[NTXbone]

If you buy it, please post more photos here and let us know how you like it!

[Jimbbob]

Hey NTXbone, thanks for the wealth of information. I did indeed buy it, for $225! And yes, I've searched everywhere for information about this horn but, with the exception of some long outdated ebay bids and other classifieds, there's little to be found. I guess the reason I'm anxious to learn more is to confirm my thoughts: this horn plays absolutely beautifully. I'm nowhere near the caliber of player of most folks on this forum, but I know what I hear. I recently sold a 42B Corp horn that one of the members here refurbished for me. I'd like a 2nd opinion, but I think this horn sounds every bit as good.
I guess the kicker is that the horn is in near perfect condition. The slide is easily 9/10 and there's very few dents or flaws on the horn. The only idiosyncrasy with the horn is that it's not great ergonomically (for me), specifically for my left hand. The "throw" on the trigger is long and full activation takes my thumb down near my palm, if that makes sense. I will try to include a few pics here in hopes you (or anyone) can help me positively identify it. Sounds like you and I may be neighbors, so I'll send you a pm and see if you'd like to compare notes.

[Jimbbob]

A few more pics

[BGuttman]

Looks nice.

I think you can fix the throw problem by either having the trigger bent back toward the bell brace, or gluing on a pad of some sort. I might try a mute cork. If the problem is that the trigger paddle is actually hitting your left hand, the pad won't help.

[PhilE]

I notice the slide is marked ULW3.

That's the same as the Courtois Ultra Light Weight slide.

Nickel silver outers and lead pipe.

Phil

[timbone]

The trombones were made by Courtois when JA Musiks were the distribution factor for Courtois via B&S/Gerhard Meinl/ Enrique Crespo was the main consultant in ans around that time.