Benge / BAC

[hyperbolica]

Along with some others, I've been kind of critical of BAC with their seeming emphasis of style over substance. Although I never played one of their new creations or restorations, I just don't care for the vibe. I mean, color on horns is cool as long as it doesn't affect sound any more than regular lacquer, but I'd never put a purely decorative plate with sharp points on it next to my ear - thinking about the BAC model shown in the other BAC thread https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=6438


Anyway, I've been a combination of horrified and hopeful since BAC bought a bunch of tooling from Kanstul. Kanstul was a brand that I wanted to love, but I didn't like all of their horns. I played a small bore that scared me the first time I blew it, and I've got a bass that has a nice velvety sound. And then they had some of those really cool things that I never knew what to think, like the 8h copy with TIS. I'm also a fan of Olds and Benge, but again with mixed opinions on different models from each. Too bad Zig and his vision didn't last longer.

Searching through the BAC site, I was happily surprised to see a Benge entry on one of the menus https://www.coolisbac.com/benge. It looks like BAC is reviving Benge. For now it looks like just the trumpets, but how can you revive Benge without reviving trombones, the 170, 175, 190, 290? I think this is a great move for them, and maybe it will win over some skeptics like me. If they execute well, the Benge line could bring some real respectability to an organization I've seen as mere "cake decorators". Does anyone have any experience with the new Benge instruments?

[chromebone]

All Benge trombones were based on King designs and used King tooling and parts and were built in the King Eastlake facility by King, (later UMI) workers. Conn-Selmer is still producing Kings and uses some of the old Benge specific parts in other horns they still produce, so it would be pretty unlikely they would sell that tooling to BAC. I would also assume Conn-Selmer still owns the rights to the name Benge, so BAC probably can't even legally brand their instruments as Benge.

King only used the Benge marque on those trombones because they wanted to differentiate them from the King brand, and they happened to own Benge at the time.

Chuck Ward told me that the prototype 190 was initially branded as a King and when they brought it to the ITA for trials, players didn't like it. When it was rebranded as a Benge, everybody loved it. Further proof that people hear with their eyes.

Benge trumpets were made in a completely different factory and city by a completely different workforce when the Benge trombone was designed and introduced. Other than the name, Benge trombones really have nothing to do with Benge trumpets.

UMI effectively destroyed the Benge trumpet brand when they sold off the factory, tooling and workforce and started to produce trumpets in Eastlake with the Benge name that were basically a mix of Conn and King trumpet parts. They weren't bad trumpets, but they weren't great either. They certainly had nothing to do with the LA Benge trumpet.

[Hobart]

Yeah, it might get hairy if BAC tried to bring back some of Benge's models. One Bach Soloist model in particular is identical to a Benge 165F, I'm not sure if the 112H still uses the same bell mandrel the 290 once did, and Conn-Selmer would probably not be happy if someone else started making these designs again with similar tooling.

You also have to consider too, Benge trumpets are far more sought after than trombones. Their trumpets are heralded as being very good. Their trombones are as well, but they're also known to be very affordable for what they are. Given this legacy the Benge trombones have, it's unlikely BAC would find them profitable enough to put into production.

[chromebone]

Their trombones are as well, but they're also known to be very affordable for what they are.

I think the 190, 170, 175 and 290 are all undervalued now, both as players and price point. At the time of their introduction, they were considered a premium instrument and had the price tag to reflect it.

They were by far the best play it right out of the case horn in the '80's up until Edwards came out in the early 90's and Yamaha got their act together. Of course you could find a good Bach or Conn, but that usually took a bit of searching or reconstruction/upgrading to make them good.

The 165 came along later when UMI wanted to try and monetize a brand they had both neglected and destroyed, so that gave rise to the perception Benge was not a top tier instrument.

[hyperbolica]

I guess it depends on what BAC bought. If they got the Benge trademarks, which they must have to some extent, they could put the name on whatever they wanted. They might not have the tooling for the trombone models, but nothing would stop them from making a new Benge 175f to compete with a 36b. The biggest single market is probably college kids, who don't necessarily have a nostalgic connection to the 1980/90s instruments.

...edit... I did a search, and BAC owns the BENGE trademark as of Dec 11, 2019. http://tmsearch.uspto.gov/bin/showfield ... hhd9t5.2.1 , which includes:

"Non-reed, brass, wind instruments-namely, trumpets, pocket trumpets, bugles, trombones and cornets; Musical instrument accessories, namely, mouthpieces, cases, carrying bags and storage bags; Replacement parts and fittings for musical instruments"


Interestingly, the Conn-Selmer Benge trademark is listed as DEAD. http://tmsearch.uspto.gov/bin/showfield ... hhd9t5.2.3

I'm not a legal expert, but the trademark search doesn't say there was a transfer of the Benge mark to BAC. It looks like BAC registered the mark, and then petitioned to have the C-S claim to it called dead. There is an overlap of the new BAC Benge and the C-S D. E. Benge from Dec 11 2019 when BAC filed for the Benge name to Jan 17, 2020 when the C-S trademark was cancelled and marked dead. For reference, the Kanstul deal was finalized May 16, 2019, so the Benge trademark was not part of the Kanstul deal. Kanstul didn't own the trademark even though he owned the tooling. BAC might have bought the Benge trumpet tooling, and then just usurped the abandoned trademark.

[Finetales]

I doubt BAC would rerelease any previous Benge models or even be allowed to despite owning the name. Probably new stuff.

Interesting how the trademark includes bugles...maybe there's some hope for BAC using the Kanstul G bugle tooling after all.

[JohnL]

I'd expect them to focus on the Benge trumpet models (maybe a flugel and/or a cornet or two). The original Burbank and Chicago Benge trumpets are pretty highly prized; not unlike original Burbank Williams trombones.

Kanstul pretty much made their name building "Benge-in-all-but-name" trumpets; when the doors closed, they were offering several "Chicago" model trumpets and were also making trumpets and flugels for Burbank Trumpets.

It's good to see the name and the tooling reunited.

[Burgerbob]

I doubt BAC would rerelease any previous Benge models or even be allowed to despite owning the name. Probably new stuff.

There's no reason for them to bring back competition for their own models. If anything they'll use little bits and pieces of the Benge tooling, much like they do with the Williams, Olds, etc. things they have.

[jacobgarchik]

emphasis of style over substance

just wanted to add my .02 that trombone designs in general are very conservative and we need a lot more visual variety. even a "flashy" maker like BAC is just scratching the surface on what could be done to braces, counterweights, colors, and finishes.

[tbonesullivan]

If I'm correct, Zig Kanstul was at one time in charge of the Benge Trumpet factory, when they were owned by King. Was that before they got rid of the original designs and tooling and moved production? Any chance they could have gotten some Benge material from the stuff they bought from Kanstul?

[chromebone]

If I'm correct, Zig Kanstul was at one time in charge of the Benge Trumpet factory, when they were owned by King. Was that before they got rid of the original designs and tooling and moved production?

Yes, that is correct. He was not involved with any Benge Trumpet production at Eastlake. UMI moved Benge Trumpet production to Eastlake sometime in the early to mid 80’s. The Eastlake Benges have a little resemblance to the LA Benges, but they seem to mostly be made up of Conn and King Trumpet patterns, parts and designs. I’ve heard they aren’t bad instruments, but they really don’t have the build quality or the magic of the LA Benges.

[hyperbolica]

just wanted to add my .02 that trombone designs in general are very conservative and we need a lot more visual variety. even a "flashy" maker like BAC is just scratching the surface on what could be done to braces, counterweights, colors, and finishes.

I get it about colors and stuff, but style at the expense of acoustics is silly unless it's a dance prop. German bones have snakes and other decorations that don't detract. Greenhoe and others embellish the ferrules, and did great acoustically. The buccin was a bit of decoration that didn't work acoustically, and we don't see those much these days. Maybe it's time for a revival?

[mahlertwo]

I mean, there's a valid point about colors and custom counterweights. Why is it so hard for me to get a matte black horn with my name on the counterweight?

[hyperbolica]

I mean, there's a valid point about colors and custom counterweights. Why is it so hard for me to get a matte black horn with my name on the counterweight?

You just don't know the right people. Anybody with a CNC would be able to put your name on a counterweight. Mixing tints in lacquer can't be that hard.

[harrisonreed]

emphasis of style over substance

just wanted to add my .02 that trombone designs in general are very conservative and we need a lot more visual variety. even a "flashy" maker like BAC is just scratching the surface on what could be done to braces, counterweights, colors, and finishes.

I disagree. There's a reason why violins, cellos, flutes, etc etc haven't been really "tricked out" either. Everything has an impact on how it plays, and these crazy designs introduce so many variables.

[MagnumH]

There’s no reason it can’t be both style AND substance. And it isn’t particularly fair to judge them by some of the wackier creations - 99% of their horns don’t look like Christopher Bill’s (the silver and purple one) though, obviously, he makes his sound great. They’re perfectly capable of making an excellent “normal” horn, but I’ve not come across any actual evidence that their flare, when they add it, makes anything acoustically worse.

[BGuttman]

just wanted to add my .02 that trombone designs in general are very conservative and we need a lot more visual variety. even a "flashy" maker like BAC is just scratching the surface on what could be done to braces, counterweights, colors, and finishes.

I disagree. There's a reason why violins, cellos, flutes, etc etc haven't been really "tricked out" either. Everything has an impact on how it plays, and these crazy designs introduce so many variables.

Back in the Bad Old Days Olds had a bear shaped counterweight. Conn made a model with slash braces and no bell rim (44H). I found that the extensive "Alessi" inscription on the Edwards T-396A turned me off (even though I bet the horn plays great).

Violins, violas, cellos, and basses are often "tricked out" with some accessories: fancy scrolls, exotic wood pegs, tuning screws, fancy stain, and even electrical pickups. Just not as flashy as a BAC.

[Hobart]

I'd like to add my own two cents, maybe there's a reason everything looks the same?
You used to have Conn and Buescher making trombones with slanted braces, you even had Getzen's "the dude" with the curved braces. There's probably a reason you don't see "the dude" in regular use anymore.
The current shape of the trombone is so ubiquitous because there's not a very huge problem with it. Why reinvent the wheel so it looks cool, when you have a horn that you know at least somewhat works in front of you?
Like, black wash a bell, I get it, but is it really worth paying a ton of money for diagonal and curvy braces that might not even work as well as a brace as the straight ones of today?

Isn't a common complaint of Holton's newer lineup excessive bracing too? I feel like manufacturers would need to be very careful coming out of the box to avoid these problems while coming up with a new scheme that looks cool.

[BGuttman]

The "Dude" was a dud. And the curved braces really didn't work well.

However, there are curved slide braces on Minick trombones and curved bell braces on King (and Selmer) trombones. King actually claimed the curved brace helped the instrument play better (probably 100% marketing -- I couldn't tell the difference, but I like the appearance).

There have been attempts to improve on trombone design. The early King dual brace (one straight and one curved) was an attempt to prevent slide distortion. It was actually patented in 1913. May have helped for the slide rigidity, but it made an ergonomic nightmare. I know. I own two of them. Conn was probably the most innovative of their day with the rimless bell (also didn't work well) and Coprion electroformed bells.

The latest development is actually quite old. Make a series of interchangeable parts that allows you to customize to suit. This was done by the US Automotive industry back in the early 1900s. Makes for a great market among the gearheads who think that you have to have the optimum tuning slide for each note. After all, why learn to play the instrument when you can just buy a new part to fix a problem?

[harrisonreed]

I disagree. There's a reason why violins, cellos, flutes, etc etc haven't been really "tricked out" either. Everything has an impact on how it plays, and these crazy designs introduce so many variables.

Back in the Bad Old Days Olds had a bear shaped counterweight. Conn made a model with slash braces and no bell rim (44H). I found that the extensive "Alessi" inscription on the Edwards T-396A turned me off (even though I bet the horn plays great).

Violins, violas, cellos, and basses are often "tricked out" with some accessories: fancy scrolls, exotic wood pegs, tuning screws, fancy stain, and even electrical pickups. Just not as flashy as a BAC.

Actually I think you're referring to the new T-396AR engraving that looks very art deco. I am not a huge fan either. The Alessi model only has small lettering on the bell. Those things are all very minor adjustments to the basic structure of the instruments you listed. Engraving does not affect the way a brass instrument plays and neither does a stain or finish choice, other than lacquered vs plated. A funny shaped counterweight will affect the playability mostly by how much mass it has and where it is attached.

It's cool to have some flair, like the Rath counterweight, or the fancy Shires engraving. Heck, a lot of the BAC engraving and bell finishes look really cool. But even you're saying that BAC's design choices are on the crazy side. My quote up there was in response to someone saying that they were just scratching the surface. Please no. Even the person who ordered the custom work in the other thread said it was a mistake and played worse than the original design.

For the T-396AR valve cap, I think they did understate it, and should have gone "all the way". It would've played about 82 times better:

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[Cotboneman]

I really like the look of the scratched finish a lot, if only to hide some finger prints until you've had a chance to wipe the horn down. I've even had my small bore horn refinished that way, and I think it looks and sounds great. But I also believe that some of these finishes actually can detract from the resonances of some horns. A case in point was a couple of trumpets I tried out last year in a music store before the pandemic. The store had a dark antique finish student line horn (I can't remember the brand, but it might have been a Giardinelli stencil), and another of the same make in standard silver plate. The antiqued finished horn, which looked like it was copied off of a doorknob design, played like it was coated in thick house paint, but it's silver plate version was very resonant and open.

As for the wild BAC custom designs like the Christopher Bill model, I'm not a fan. It's just not my taste, but you know as they always say, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. If it works for ya, go for it.

[jacobgarchik]

I'd like to see a few experienced industrial designers from outside the music world have a go at the braces and counterweight and finishes and see what they come up with.
I'd also like to see an expert in musician's injuries or physical therapy or Alexander technique design a grip system that was integrated into the instrument instead of an add on.