Bach 42B

[teachyteach]

Hello all,
My recent luck with finding instruments in pawn shops strikes again. I found a Bach 42B traditional wrap in a pawn shop with a working slide for 300 and snatched it up. After buying it, I noticed that there is not a lot of talk about the 42b. Do people hate it, find it too stuffy? I am just curious why there is so much on the other varieties of 42, but not the 42b.

I think this one plays okay, but I play trumpet primarily so I am not a very good judge of a trombone.
I think this Bach is going to live in my classroom and get used as a teaching aide, which it should be more than up to handling.

[Burgerbob]

A good 42B is as good as any of the other variations, but perhaps not quite as open through the valve. Plus for some, minus for others.

David Cantero at LA Phil plays a 42BG on principal to great effect.

Right now I'm using a former school 42B that is one of the best I have ever found... very resonant, efficient, big 42 sound.

Do be aware that many older Bachs have worn out valves and won't play well because of that... I've had 3 or 4 in this condition.

[BGuttman]

42B was the original F-attachment large bore. Originally saddled with an undersize valve (it's the same as the one on the smaller 36B) it was felt to be stuffy.

As a result, open wraps, bored out rotors, and the Axial (Thayer) valve were grafted onto the 42B.

There is nothing inherently wrong with the 42B. It was the orchestral horn of choice from the time Conn moved to Texas until the advent of the exotic valves.

At $300 it's a steal. Enjoy it.

[Vegasbound]

42b a good solid pro trombone that has been around for many years and 300 is a steal

[dukesboneman]

I have an older 42BO that played well but I felt that something was holding it back, I stripped the lacquer off and BOOM it play so much better. If the F side of the horn feels stuffy, which mine did, I had the Instrument Innovations Rotoe installed and Love it . and it`s reasonably priced

[teachyteach]

Thank you all for the good words about the horn!
Glad to hear it should last me a lifetime!

[LeTromboniste]

Some of the best 42s I've tried were 42Bs and 42Cs (one was silver plated and was absolutely stellar) with the closed wrap. Somehow it felt to me like the closed wrap maybe works better with the undersized valve than the open wrap does.

[Elow]

Does anyone play a stock 42B in any major orchestra?

[Burgerbob]

Does anyone play a stock 42B in any major orchestra?

As I said in the first reply, David Cantero plays a stock 42BG in LA Phil on principal.

[LeTromboniste]

Jorgen van Rijen long played a Courtois 420 closed wrap (which is essentially a very well made Bach 42b clone), although he has now moved to a Hagmann valve/open wrap model.

[Vegasbound]

Does anyone play a stock 42B in any major orchestra?

Byron Fulcher. Philhamonia orchestra

[Crazy4Tbone86]

Why are we listing individual players who play a Bach 42B? Simply put, there are two large-bore tenor trombones that are GIANTS in the development and influence of almost all 20th and 21st Century American-style symphonic trombones: the Conn 8H/88H and the Bach 42/42B.

There are thousands of top-shelf players who have played or continue to play the Bach 42B. If they are not currently playing a Bach 42 or Conn 88H, they are likely playing a horn that was influenced by these instruments.

Concerning “old” or “worn” rotors, the standard rotary valve can be refit..... the bearings can be tightened and the bearing plate can be trimmed to hold the rotor to its original tolerances. In worse case scenarios, the rotor might need some plating.

It is true that the standard rotor on a 42B is undersized. However, I have found that those rotors (especially the 90/90 degree traditional wrap rotor) play very well when the core ports are opened up.

[Rrova]

Does anyone play a stock 42B in any major orchestra?

Byron Fulcher. Philhamonia orchestra

Yes! Check out Byron’s Mahler 3 solo! Also do a YouTube search of the Philharmonia brass quintet playing Christmas music. I’m a big fan of Byrons sound!

[LeTromboniste]

Why are we listing individual players who play a Bach 42B? Simply put, there are two large-bore tenor trombones that are GIANTS in the development and influence of almost all 20th and 21st Century American-style symphonic trombones: the Conn 8H/88H and the Bach 42/42B.

There are thousands of top-shelf players who have played or continue to play the Bach 42B. If they are not currently playing a Bach 42 or Conn 88H, they are likely playing a horn that was influenced by these instruments.

Concerning “old” or “worn” rotors, the standard rotary valve can be refit..... the bearings can be tightened and the bearing plate can be trimmed to hold the rotor to its original tolerances. In worse case scenarios, the rotor might need some plating.

It is true that the standard rotor on a 42B is undersized. However, I have found that those rotors (especially the 90/90 degree traditional wrap rotor) play very well when the core ports are opened up.

I think the question is specifically 42 with stock rotor and closed/traditional wrap

[jacobgarchik]

I use one. Circa 1980, not a "corp", unmodified except for a screw bell.

You can hear it here:


I bet if you searched youtube for 1970s and 1980s American orchestras you will see quite a lot of them, especially on 2nd trombone.

Didn't Alessi play one in the 80s?

[timothy42b]

Does anyone play a stock 42B in any major orchestra?

Doug Wright of Minnesota used to, I don't know if he still does. I saw him at a master class years ago and he held up a beatup 42B and said, "you can tell I'm not a gear junkie," or words to that effect. He had two 42Bs near identical, I think one was yellow brass and one gold brass.

I always thought he had about the cleanest start to a note of any classical pro out there - never a football, always a brick or when he wanted, more like a gage block.

[Bach5G]

I once suggested Edwards modular horns were an advertising gimmick. A pro orch player promptly assured me he could do things with his Eddie that he couldn’t on his old 42B.

I’ve had a couple of 42B’s over the years. The first was (OMG) over 40 years ago. I played it in orch at uni and, after graduating, traded it in for a Bach 16. The second was a friend’s horn I bought about 10 years ago. The slide had been damaged and hadn’t been repaired very well. The blow seemed off and Benn Hansen subsequently found a blob of solder in the tuning slide when he Thayerized it for me. However, I could never get the slide right and eventually sold it.

[Bonearzt]

42B was the original F-attachment large bore. Originally saddled with an undersize valve (it's the same as the one on the smaller 36B) it was felt to be stuffy.

As a result, open wraps, bored out rotors, and the Axial (Thayer) valve were grafted onto the 42B.

There is nothing inherently wrong with the 42B. It was the orchestral horn of choice from the time Conn moved to Texas until the advent of the exotic valves.
At $300 it's a steal. Enjoy it.

Hi Bruce, I may be mistaken, it's happened once or twice, but I believe the 42B was a response to the Conn 88H.
The 36B @ 0.525" was the original and the 0.547"42B was it's successor with a large bore slide and larger bell, keeping the valve section of the 36.
The larger bore of this valve section on the 36 is what I believe made the magic in this horn!

But again I may be mistaken.

Thanks!
Eric

[euphobone]

42B was the original F-attachment large bore. Originally saddled with an undersize valve (it's the same as the one on the smaller 36B) it was felt to be stuffy.

As a result, open wraps, bored out rotors, and the Axial (Thayer) valve were grafted onto the 42B.

There is nothing inherently wrong with the 42B. It was the orchestral horn of choice from the time Conn moved to Texas until the advent of the exotic valves.
At $300 it's a steal. Enjoy it.

Hi Bruce, I may be mistaken, it's happened once or twice, but I believe the 42B was a response to the Conn 88H.
The 36B @ 0.525" was the original and the 0.547"42B was it's successor with a large bore slide and larger bell, keeping the valve section of the 36.
The larger bore of this valve section on the 36 is what I believe made the magic in this horn!

But again I may be mistaken.

Thanks!
Eric

What was the bore size through the valve section?

[elmsandr]

Hi Bruce, I may be mistaken, it's happened once or twice, but I believe the 42B was a response to the Conn 88H.
The 36B @ 0.525" was the original and the 0.547"42B was it's successor with a large bore slide and larger bell, keeping the valve section of the 36.
The larger bore of this valve section on the 36 is what I believe made the magic in this horn!

But again I may be mistaken.

Thanks!
Eric

What was the bore size through the valve section?

See.. that's the thing. The valve sections have a bore of 0.562. But through the rotor and gooseneck, they're both about .530. Open that little bit up and you've got yourself a heck of a horn (on a 42 at least, I don't have a 36).

FWIW, there are .547 slides from Bach that predate the 42 using the same leadpipe designation (on the shop card at least), so the 42 is a lot like, well, if we swap out these parts we've already got, it matches this 88H thing on the market. They offered plenty (relatively) of 36s with 8.5" bells before the 42 was out there. Wouldn't surprise me if the tooling for that leadpipe changed over the years to better match what they think people wanted (my Mt Vernon 42 leadpipe feels a lot different than my NY45 and both are significantly different from the modern 42 that I no longer own. These all are supposedly the same leadpipe number.

Cheers,
Andy

[BGuttman]

That 0.530" valve works GREAT on my 36 (it's a CG from about 1990). I know that several techs (including Osmun here in metro Boston) offered a rotor port expansion on 42s.

FWIW, I have played Yamahas, Kings and Conns with standard (for them) rotors and never had a stuffiness problem.

[LeTromboniste]

Does the 42 have 0.562" bore in the wrap tubing? I thought it was smaller.

FWIW the conversion kit from Hagmann for Bach 42s comes with wrap tubing of 0.551" bore. I'm surprised to hear that it's actually smaller than then original Bach wrap.

[Burgerbob]

Yes, Bach 36 and 42 both have .562 valve wraps.

The 42BO even has an offset (the tube coming back into the valve) that's .593!

[Crazy4Tbone86]

Actually, that .593 offset tubing is also on the 36BO.

The Bach 42 open wrap is a hot mess. Any "openess" of the wrap is offset in a negative way by the sharp 180 degree bend in the valve as it goes into the gooseneck. The oversized offset or "S" tubing was put in there to open things up, but it really does not work because the diameter is reduced down to the .530s in the valve port. This is why so many prefer the Bach rotary valves with the traditional wrap and the 90/90 degree valve.......they actually blow more freely.

[sterb225]

I second the lacquer stripping comment on 42s - I've gone after every one I've ever owned with a box of brillo and some elbow grease and am always happier with the feel and sound after the effort. There are tons of good ones, some that are not so good and every once in a while a magical one will cross your path. If you run across a non-magic one, it can be worth it to have a tech that understands assembly stress spend a few hours with a torch to free it up.

[jbeatenbough]

I love my 42B and feel it is one of the magical ones. I picked it up at the factory in 1978 and don't plan on parting with it. A good 42B is amazingly versatile.