Obscure alto-horn instrument showdown.

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Hobart
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Obscure alto-horn instrument showdown.

Post by Hobart »

So, in terms of sheer novelty value, what would be better?

On Facebook Marketplace, there is a Conn Mellophonium in great shape for $200, but it's 2 hours away. It has the Eb slide, original case, original mouthpiece, and most of its lacquer.

Also on Facebook Marketplace, there is a Getzen Frumpet. I know it's been described as "inferior" in pretty much every way, but it's $125, far closer to home, and probably easy to get a better price on because it's been on the site for several weeks now. It is in rougher shape, and I'd use this to try to get a price lower than $100.

Which one of these choices is less idiotic? I have a weird thing for obscure alto instruments nobody uses anymore.
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ithinknot
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Re: Obscure alto-horn instrument showdown.

Post by ithinknot »

This isn't difficult.

Mellophonium!
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Re: Obscure alto-horn instrument showdown.

Post by BGuttman »

I'd do the Mellophonium. A real Mellophone would be just as interesting -- only difference is the way it's held. I'm not a fan of "marching instruments".
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Re: Obscure alto-horn instrument showdown.

Post by Finetales »

I already posted my thoughts on this on the Discord server, but I'll put them again here.

I own both instruments. The mellophonium can have musical value, while the frumpet kind of can't. I bought the mellophonium because I really wanted one (and it was dirt cheap); I bought the frumpet because it was dirt cheap. That pretty much tells you the whole story, but here's a more thorough comparison.

1. The mellophonium and frumpet both have a unique sound. The mellophonium's is beautiful in the right hands. The frumpet's...is not. It's very forgettable and a tad annoying. Kind of sounds like it has a cold. It can be a good blending instrument if you work at it, but that's about it. If you just want a unique alto brass instrument to be a blending ensemble instrument, buy a DEG model 1220 alto cornet. They also show up on eBay pretty frequently and play very well (since they were made by Willson). Nice sound, very compact, sturdy, fun to play. I've used both mellophonium and alto cornet extensively on both live gigs and studio recordings...the frumpet sits stored in its case on the other side of the country.
2. The Conn 16E is NOT a well-designed instrument. Its woeful reputation IS overblown (largely due to the early Kenton section detesting having to play the instrument and deliberately playing it as disruptively as possible), but it is far from an easy instrument to play. The valve slides are too long for F and too short for Eb and the high range is whiny and very difficult to center. Having said all this, the frumpet is FAR worse. Partials are no more than suggestions, and the ones that exist enough to kind of hit are hilariously out of whack. I've never played an instrument that had to use more alternate fingerings just to get anywhere close to in tune.
3. Both instruments were designed as marching substitutes for the horn and didn't really do a very good job (hence the modern marching mellophone), but the mellophonium has an established history in jazz, both as a solo instrument (especially if you include what Don Elliott did with his custom precursor mellophonium) and an ensemble instrument (in the 4-person Kenton section). Stan Kenton chose mellophoniums as his 4th horn section very carefully...he tried other things including horns, flugelhorns, and I think alto trumpets if I remember correctly, but chose the mellophonium. The frumpet has no such illustrious history...it failed as a marching instrument and failed at everything else. Contrary to popular belief, the Conn 16E was far from the only model of mellophonium...Holton made 2 different models (!), and Reynolds, Olds, and even Courtois made them. Getzen was the only one to make the frumpet, and there is a reason for that.
4. The mellophonium looks way cooler than the frumpet. However, the frumpet is much less of an ergonomic challenge, being a familiar trumpet shape with a familiar trumpet grip. That said, the mellophonium is easily manageable if you know how to hold it right. (Pro tip: grip the 3rd valve slide with your left hand, and angle the instrument to the right a fair bit. Works just fine.)

Now moving on to the two specific instruments for sale.

$125 is a lot for a frumpet. I got mine for $100 in good shape with both slides and a mouthpiece, and to be honest that's the max I would ever pay for one. $200 is steep for a 16E as well, but the complete package of good condition, Eb slide, and original mouthpiece is pretty rare so I would happily pay that money. Mine was $110, but it came with no mouthpiece or Eb slide and needed leadpipe repair.

In short:
Which one of these choices is less idiotic?
The mellophonium. All day, every day, every way, and all 6 degrees from Kevin Bacon.

Neither of them are "idiotic" if you enjoy obscure brass instruments and just want to have fun, but the mellophonium is the more relatively sane purchase. Frumpets show up for nothing all the time, good condition 16Es with all the original extras are not that common. If you really decide you want to get a frumpet, you can pick one up later on for around $100 and have both. But the mellophonium (especially that specific 16E) is a much better first buy.

IMO, of course.

P.S. If you want more obscure instruments to buy on eBay for pocket change, add that DEG alto cornet (usually/always listed as a "DEG mellophone", but they never made a mellophone so it'll for sure be the right instrument), circular mellophone (especially if it has multiple crooks, usually F/Eb/D/C), and flugabone. You can also find older marching mellophones and marching French horns for cheap, but those aren't as unique as the others.

P.P.S. There is one BIG caveat to the frumpet. IF you decide you're ok with sinking more money into the instrument, the frumpet can be easily modified into a playable instrument. The easiest route is buying one of those Chansons hybrid pieces with the French horn shank, thus eliminating the single thing that makes the frumpet so awfully out of tune. (The horn mouthpiece and its deep V cup is not an acoustic match for the instrument.) Level 2 is to swap the leadpipe for an alto horn shank and use an alto horn mouthpiece with it. Level 3 is to swap the bell with a small trombone bell and the leadpipe with a trombone leadpipe, thus turning it into a nice alto valve trombone. A member of the old TTF used to do those conversions for people.

BUT, if you want to spend more hundreds on the frumpet (a ridiculous concept), you might as well just buy both the mellophonium and the frumpet.
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Re: Obscure alto-horn instrument showdown.

Post by andym »

I hadn’t heard of the DEG alto cornet and so went to eBay to have a look. There is one for sale for $300. Interesting looking instrument.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Donald-E-Getze ... SwLwhfig2a
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Re: Obscure alto-horn instrument showdown.

Post by Finetales »

andym wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 11:09 pm I hadn’t heard of the DEG alto cornet and so went to eBay to have a look. There is one for sale for $300. Interesting looking instrument.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Donald-E-Getze ... SwLwhfig2a
Yeah, $300 is usually the highest they go for. Apart from the bend in the leadpipe that one looks to be in good shape, but I doubt the seller gets their full asking price for it. Like the mellophonium and frumpet, nobody is interested in buying one because it has no real use. You have to MAKE your own uses for all these obscure instruments! Like the mellophonium and frumpet, the DEG originally came with an Eb slide, but I've never seen one that still has it. I've seen one with a bigger bell and I'd like to track one of those down, as well as the hyper-rare Swiss-market-only Willson version that stands in Eb (rather than F with an alternate Eb slide).
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Re: Obscure alto-horn instrument showdown.

Post by andym »

I get it. I briefly owned an Eb alto valve trombone. I can’t remember why except that it was cool. I do own a very nice sounding old German Eb alto solo horn with a circular wrap and forward facing bell. The ostensible reason was a travel instrument when I was preparing for alto trombone performances. And I have done that. The real reason was I couldn’t resist it. I have no expectation of ever using it in public.
Last edited by andym on Mon Nov 16, 2020 12:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Obscure alto-horn instrument showdown.

Post by dukesboneman »

A couple years ago I picked up an Alto Flugel-horn for $200.
I had Doug Elliott make a custom mouthpiece for it
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Re: Obscure alto-horn instrument showdown.

Post by elmsandr »

The mellophoniums are not great.

The Frumpets are terrible.

I have an old York Alto horn that is not too bad. Should probably get a decent mouthpiece for it. Think I'd actively like it if I could make a bell up flare for it. Should add that to the project list...

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Re: Obscure alto-horn instrument showdown.

Post by cmcslide »

Scot Reeves in New York plays the alto fluegelhorn extremely well. You can hear him on several records, including his own and those of the Bill Mobley Big Band (which used to play every Monday night at Smoke). Great writer, too.
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Re: Obscure alto-horn instrument showdown.

Post by andym »

I also use one of Doug’s mouthpieces on my alto horn. I think it is a standard A cup and I think he made a smaller than usual shank.
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