TromboneChat

First post, not entirely sure anybody can see this but whatever

Anyways what innovations, gimmicks, or other little tweaks do you wish existed?

I'd love a sliding counterweight to balance with mutes, slide it on back to balance out that cup mute.

Built-in pitch corrector?

That'd be something. A motorized tuning slide maybe?

I'd like to see the further normalization of copper bells.

I think modular slide crooks would be cool and not that hard to make reality.

Modular crooks would make cleaning your outer slide a breeze!

Laser sight, sound amplifier, crosshair...

Remote control water key. Button somewhere near the mouthpiece/slide tenon area that can be pushed without taking your hand off the horn. Self-healing brass so the dents just pop right out. Hell, how about a music reading device that reminds you when the 108 bars of rest are about over!

Kingfan wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 3:23 pm Remote control water key. Button somewhere near the mouthpiece/slide tenon area that can be pushed without taking your hand off the horn.

Already done! Germans did this starting at least 60 years ago, probably more.

skeletal wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 12:02 pm First post, not entirely sure anybody can see this but whatever

Anyways what innovations, gimmicks, or other little tweaks do you wish existed?

I'd love a sliding counterweight to balance with mutes, slide it on back to balance out that cup mute.

That already exists. At least one forum member has his counterweight on a stick that goes out behind the tuning slide.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 3:40 pm

Kingfan wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 3:23 pm Remote control water key. Button somewhere near the mouthpiece/slide tenon area that can be pushed without taking your hand off the horn.

Already done! Germans did this starting at least 60 years ago, probably more.

Could this be possibly made electronic and the button would send a signal to the waterkey? Imagine having to charge your trombone

Elow wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 1:55 pm I think modular slide crooks would be cool and not that hard to make reality.

You could incorporate TIS into this concept, too. TIS in the crook has already been done, but interchangeable crooks that are TIS capable would be tricky.

Kingfan wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 3:23 pm Hell, how about a music reading device that reminds you when the 108 bars of rest are about over!

Me and my friends use the TE Tuner app and use the metronome feature to count our rests because it shows how many times it’s repeated the measure. Super useful for people who have trouble counting past 10 (me)

I'd like to see affordable mouthpiece prototypes. It would be truly something if you could go on a mouthpiece maker's website and be met with embedded software that let you tweak the entire shape of the mouthpiece. You could set some points (like shank outer shape and end point, or rim contour and cup width) that stay locked, and then tweak the rest of the mouthpiece. There would be an analytics box telling you the mass (for brass), cup volume, throat volume, shank volume, etc, as well as how much you've deviated from known a known design that you choose as a control. Maybe it could even do a calculation that tells you how the volumes and overall length would change pitch vs the control mouthpiece you chose, so you could tweak the length or insertion depth to compensate. In this way, you could keep the parts of your mouthpiece you know work, like cup width and rim shape, and experiment with cup shapes, depths, and blank shapes. Hit "buy" and you get a mouthpiece. Prototypes done this way from a CNC file are relatively expensive, so the real innovation would be a company that could deliver your mouthpiece for $150.

Of course most people would be sent a complete paperweight, myself included, but you might have many satisfied customers who just choose a mouthpiece they already use and only change the blank shape, or slightly tweak only the cup shape.

I'd like to see a production single rotor bass trombone (not boutique) that can be pulled to E with a long enough slide for an in tune low B! Not everybody needs or wants a double rotor!

bigbandbone wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 4:36 pm I'd like to see a production single rotor bass trombone (not boutique) that can be pulled to E with a long enough slide for an in tune low B! Not everybody needs or wants a double rotor!

There is one. I think it's called the Bartok Trombone (based on the need in Miraculous Mandarin and Concerto for Orchestra). It has a second lever that extends the attachment tuning slide to E.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:48 pm

bigbandbone wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 4:36 pm I'd like to see a production single rotor bass trombone (not boutique) that can be pulled to E with a long enough slide for an in tune low B! Not everybody needs or wants a double rotor!

There is one. I think it's called the Bartok Trombone (based on the need in Miraculous Mandarin and Concerto for Orchestra). It has a second lever that extends the attachment tuning slide to E.

https://thein-blechblasinstrumente.de/0 ... rtok-v.php

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:59 pm

BGuttman wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:48 pm

There is one. I think it's called the Bartok Trombone (based on the need in Miraculous Mandarin and Concerto for Orchestra). It has a second lever that extends the attachment tuning slide to E.

https://thein-blechblasinstrumente.de/0 ... rtok-v.php

That isn't pull through....

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 6:00 pm

That isn't pull through....

It's one of the couple single basses ever made with a real low B. Good enough! Almost no singles have that anyway.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 6:10 pm

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 6:00 pm

That isn't pull through....

It's one of the couple single basses ever made with a real low B. Good enough! Almost no singles have that anyway.

Totally trollin lol

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 4:04 pm I'd like to see affordable mouthpiece prototypes. It would be truly something if you could go on a mouthpiece maker's website and be met with embedded software that let you tweak the entire shape of the mouthpiece. You could set some points (like shank outer shape and end point, or rim contour and cup width) that stay locked, and then tweak the rest of the mouthpiece. There would be an analytics box telling you the mass (for brass), cup volume, throat volume, shank volume, etc, as well as how much you've deviated from known a known design that you choose as a control. Maybe it could even do a calculation that tells you how the volumes and overall length would change pitch vs the control mouthpiece you chose, so you could tweak the length or insertion depth to compensate. In this way, you could keep the parts of your mouthpiece you know work, like cup width and rim shape, and experiment with cup shapes, depths, and blank shapes. Hit "buy" and you get a mouthpiece. Prototypes done this way from a CNC file are relatively expensive, so the real innovation would be a company that could deliver your mouthpiece for $150.

Of course most people would be sent a complete paperweight, myself included, but you might have many satisfied customers who just choose a mouthpiece they already use and only change the blank shape, or slightly tweak only the cup shape.

I think you should reach out to James R. New. He's doing pretty much exactly what you're describing, just over email. I've tried a couple of pieces my friend had made and they feel and sound like the real deal. Give it a shot!

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 3:48 pm

Elow wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 1:55 pm I think modular slide crooks would be cool and not that hard to make reality.

You could incorporate TIS into this concept, too. TIS in the crook has already been done, but interchangeable crooks that are TIS capable would be tricky.

Yeah, TIS at the bottom of the slide is not uncommon in some German instruments, but I doubt they ever used that as a way to swap between interchangeable parts.

Fun fact, one of the earliest extant trombones (late 16th century, Italian) has two interchangeable slide crooks, one of which has a "pigtail" loop in it that puts the instrument at a lower pitch (I assume by a half step, but I didn't get a chance to actually try swapping them...have to go back and measure it properly to see exactly how much length it adds). Then again back then no joints were soldered, everything was friction fit and horns could just be taken apart into a bunch of crooks and tubes...

1. TIS handslide with carbon fiber parts so it's same weight as a 'standard' handslide
2. motorized bass trombone valves using batteries recharged by the movement of the handslide, actuated by 2 super short-throw thumb/finger paddles (no linkages needed).
3. modular slide tenons secured by set screws so swapping slides between manufacturers is simple.
4. handslides built from super-low coefficient of friction materials so no lube is ever needed
5. tungsten counterweights (much higher density than brass = lower profile)

I have a trombone with modular slide crooks. I think I bought it here on the forum? It’s an 1880s higham peashooter. It was modified by a previous owner to make the crooks interchangeable. I have one that puts it at a440, one at A454, one at a430. It uses like a little lyre screw to tighten them on.

Kingfan wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 3:23 pm Remote control water key. Button somewhere near the mouthpiece/slide tenon area that can be pushed without taking your hand off the horn. Self-healing brass so the dents just pop right out. Hell, how about a music reading device that reminds you when the 108 bars of rest are about over!

It exists!

Left-handed F triggers as part of regular production!

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 3:40 pm

Kingfan wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 3:23 pm Remote control water key. Button somewhere near the mouthpiece/slide tenon area that can be pushed without taking your hand off the horn.

Already done! Germans did this starting at least 60 years ago, probably more.

I haven't seen one on any modern production horn. Was it bad implementation of a good idea, or was the technology of the time not up to the challenge? I envision a watch battery powered valve with thin wires going to a button on the top of the slide. Gotta have a failsafe, though, so you don't trip it when playing.

Kingfan wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 9:06 pm

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 3:40 pm

Already done! Germans did this starting at least 60 years ago, probably more.

I haven't seen one on any modern production horn. Was it bad implementation of a good idea, or was the technology of the time not up to the challenge? I envision a watch battery powered valve with thin wires going to a button on the top of the slide. Gotta have a failsafe, though, so you don't trip it when playing.

See above! Noah posted one on a horn he commissioned. Shires was also going to incorporate this into the Lone Star model, I'm not sure if that ever came to fruition though. It's on many modern German instruments.

• Every trombone should have the Conn-style springs at the top of the handslide so you can pull in from 1st if necessary and not destroy your face by pulling the slide in too quickly.

• The German-style remote water key (already mentioned here) being a standard feature on all but the most lightweight trombones. It's such a nice thing to have.

• A nice, high-quality modern Solo-Tone mute. Something that measures up to the Shastocks. Including a bigger one for bass trombone!

• Small tenors built specifically for legit work. They exist and are fabulous things, like the Romeo Adaci .500 bore I played at DJs. You can of course play normal small tenors in classical settings just fine with the right concept, mouthpiece choice, and repertoire, but an instrument specifically designed for orchestral use that you could pick off the rack and play would be really cool to see.

• You know those little clip-on Snark tuners? One of those, but it's a decibel meter.

• More colors. Denis Wick has a few different limited edition colors of their trumpet straight mute (red, blue, and 50th anniversary gold) out right now and they look great. Why can't they always be available? I bet if your standard utility mutes were always available in multiple finishes like that, the colors would sell just as much if not more than the standard silver. The H&B metal mutes that are black or red/gold look great.

• Ascending valves being more common. A dependent F/ascending C tenor trombone is the perfect system for modern orchestral tenor players having to play modern rep. Gives you all the normal Bb/F notes, plus low C and B in an easy 1st and 2nd. Dead simple to understand, plus if you feel like it there are some other nice alternates in the middle high registers you can use too. It's dependent, so you're not changing the open horn any more than one valve does. Would work great as a bass as well, somewhere in between a single and a double. An INDEPENDENT F/ascending C bass trombone has an amazing set of possible slide positions and is lighter than a traditional double. Plus, with a screw bell and shortened slide, it is very compact for travel (as a forum member here proved a while ago).

LeoInFL wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 7:49 pm 1. TIS handslide with carbon fiber parts so it's same weight as a 'standard' handslide
2. motorized bass trombone valves using batteries recharged by the movement of the handslide, actuated by 2 super short-throw thumb/finger paddles (no linkages needed).
3. modular slide tenons secured by set screws so swapping slides between manufacturers is simple.
4. handslides built from super-low coefficient of friction materials so no lube is ever needed
5. tungsten counterweights (much higher density than brass = lower profile)

These all sound great but valves are already too complicated and prone to all sorts of sounds and clicks, and alignment problems. I wouldn't trust a battery operated remote controlled rotor in any performance.

#4 a thousand times though. Please someone.

Finetales wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 9:29 pm

• A nice, high-quality modern Solo-Tone mute. Something that measures up to the Shastocks. Including a bigger one for bass trombone!

I'm forgetting the maker's name, but there's a Japanese mute company that makes one, if memory serves, that looks very nice. a friend has their trumpet version and it's really excellent.

Finetales wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 9:29 pm

• Ascending valves being more common. A dependent F/ascending C tenor trombone is the perfect system for modern orchestral tenor players having to play modern rep. Gives you all the normal Bb/F notes, plus low C and B in an easy 1st and 2nd. Dead simple to understand, plus if you feel like it there are some other nice alternates in the middle high registers you can use too. It's dependent, so you're not changing the open horn any more than one valve does. Would work great as a bass as well, somewhere in between a single and a double. An INDEPENDENT F/ascending C bass trombone has an amazing set of possible slide positions and is lighter than a traditional double. Plus, with a screw bell and shortened slide, it is very compact for travel (as a forum member here proved a while ago).

Yes, love the idea of having both F and C valves on a tenor! I'm not sure I get how you make a dependent ascending valve though. If the ascending valve is in the F valve wrap, that will actually give you Bb/F/G, so it would need to be the opposite, F valve in the small ascending valve wrap, but that seems like a design nightmare, fitting a valve in such a small wrap, and would take out any possibility of having a tuning slide in the ascending valve wrap. It also still has the air go through both valves when playing on the Bb side, so there's no real advantage to having it be dependent (i.e. the only side of the horn that would involve only one valve would be the C side). Or am I missing something?

With independent you could have it either as Bb/F/C/G or Bb/C/Eb/F, both sound like really practical options (the second might be a bit heavy and less useful for tenor but sounds like lovely a lovely idea for bass).

To avoid having to make the slide shorter than a normal Bb instrument, it would have to be TIS.

LeTromboniste wrote: ↑Fri Nov 20, 2020 4:21 am With independent you could have it either as Bb/F/C/G or Bb/C/Eb/F, both sound like really practical options (the second might be a bit heavy and less useful for tenor but sounds like lovely a lovely idea for bass).

Except the ascending valve can't be a properly tuned major second in both cases, so wouldn't you end up with something more like Bb/F/C/~Gb, or Bb/C/Eb/~E (...or Bb/~Db/Eb/F) in the bass version?

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 9:32 pm These all sound great but valves are already too complicated and prone to all sorts of sounds and clicks, and alignment problems. I wouldn't trust a battery operated remote controlled rotor in any performance.

I was thinking way out of the box on the valves. Too much mass on a standard rotary or axial valve. Possibly something like a camera shutter (the old mechanical SLR type). Still clicks but you could probably make the enclosure sound tight. It's a pipe dream, I know.

ithinknot wrote: ↑Fri Nov 20, 2020 4:57 am

LeTromboniste wrote: ↑Fri Nov 20, 2020 4:21 am With independent you could have it either as Bb/F/C/G or Bb/C/Eb/F, both sound like really practical options (the second might be a bit heavy and less useful for tenor but sounds like lovely a lovely idea for bass).

Except the ascending valve can't be a properly tuned major second in both cases, so wouldn't you end up with something more like Bb/F/C/~Gb, or Bb/C/Eb/~E (...or Bb/~Db/Eb/F) in the bass version?

(you're right, I meant independent, I corrected above)

The tuning of one of the valve combinations won't be perfect, but that is the same problem any independent system has (i.e. you can't have F, Gb and D all perfectly in tune in the same 1st position, something's gotta give). In this case though it's not the major second that will not be exact between Bb and C, but the fourth or fifth down from either of them. In the first case either the G would be a bit low or the F a bit high (I'd favor the slightly high F because now that you have a low C and B in 1st and 2nd position, it doesn't matter as much to lose them on the F side). With a 5th valve, you would get a low F (not good) or a high Eb.

• More colors. Denis Wick has a few different limited edition colors of their trumpet straight mute (red, blue, and 50th anniversary gold) out right now and they look great. Why can't they always be available? I bet if your standard utility mutes were always available in multiple finishes like that, the colors would sell just as much if not more than the standard silver. The H&B metal mutes that are black or red/gold look great.

[/quote]

I'm positive there was a pink Wallace straight trombone mute for sale on Ebay at some point this year.

Imagine being in the audience and the whole brass section is armed with them

slipmo wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 8:27 pm

Kingfan wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 3:23 pm Remote control water key. Button somewhere near the mouthpiece/slide tenon area that can be pushed without taking your hand off the horn. Self-healing brass so the dents just pop right out. Hell, how about a music reading device that reminds you when the 108 bars of rest are about over!

It exists!

I want an easy way to add this to my Edwards.

A way to make Thin wall sterling bells...

LeoinFl stated....

"I was thinking way out of the box on the valves. Too much mass on a standard rotary or axial valve. Possibly something like a camera shutter (the old mechanical SLR type). Still clicks but you could probably make the enclosure sound tight. It's a pipe dream, I know."

You might want to find the Yamaha "V" valve models. I think they are mostly distributed in Japan. The "V" valve is very small compared to many of the other valves. I have never played on one, but I know people who have tried it and liked it.

The F and C (ascending) valve trombone does exist, but very few have been made. There is a thread somewhere in TromboneChat about it. Fascinating stuff. Making a trombone with independent F and ascending C valve is on my bucket list. Someday, when I retire, I hope to make one!

Some great ideas on this thread. One in particular.....modular slide crooks, I think is very doable. It is also on my bucket list. Great care would need to be taken with finding a way to keep the outer slide tubes parallel.

On notion that I have had for years is making a reverse hand slide. It would look strange because the lower outside slide would be stationary. The construction would require having a brace come down from the upper outer slide that has a small platform for your right thumb and fingers. The platform would levitate about 1/8 to 1/4 inch above the stationary lower outer slide. Making the slide parallel would likely be a nightmare!

A circular slide so that 7th would be next to 1st.

Bigbandbone.
Why not a "Boutique" maker? Why not a Small Business manufacturer?

M&W make a single basses, in either open or traditional wrap, with a full E pull, in either TIS or TIB construction, with choice of bell construction, materials etc etc.

Brian,
There was such a slide made many years ago. Can't recall the maker, but it was really not a very successful idea. Sorry to say.

skeletal wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 12:02 pm First post, not entirely sure anybody can see this but whatever

Your first post turned out to be an excellent discussion grenade.
Well done, sir.
Some great creative and potentially viable ideas flowing out.

Crazy4Tbone86 wrote: ↑Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:05 am On notion that I have had for years is making a reverse hand slide. It would look strange because the lower outside slide would be stationary. The construction would require having a brace come down from the upper outer slide that has a small platform for your right thumb and fingers. The platform would levitate about 1/8 to 1/4 inch above the stationary lower outer slide. Making the slide parallel would likely be a nightmare!

This has also been done actually! (except the inner tubes were even tapered!) Couturier was the maker's name. Instead of a platform for your thumb and fingers, it was a concentric sleeve around the tube, with enough space in-between the two for the outer tube to slide.

http://www.mimo-db.eu/MIMO/infodoc/ged/ ... 0683_17194

LeTromboniste wrote: ↑Fri Nov 20, 2020 8:17 am

Crazy4Tbone86 wrote: ↑Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:05 am On notion that I have had for years is making a reverse hand slide. It would look strange because the lower outside slide would be stationary. ...

This has also been done actually! ...

http://www.mimo-db.eu/MIMO/infodoc/ged/ ... 0683_17194

Very interesting. What is the benefit of this design? It might be obvious, but I'm not seeing it.

It is the same concept as the "reversed tuning slide". Basically, the inner profile of the sound path is only going increasing in size as it progresses through the horn. Where-as a regular handslide actually gets smaller again when the path transitions from the lower outer tube to the lower inner tube.

hornbuilder wrote: ↑Fri Nov 20, 2020 8:41 am It is the same concept as the "reversed tuning slide". Basically, the inner profile of the sound path is only going increasing in size as it progresses through the horn.

Ohhh...that makes perfect sense. I would love to play some horns with some innovations like that. Unfortunately, Tucson doesn’t have much inventory. I’ll have to try to make it to an ITF one year.

Tbarh wrote: ↑Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:02 am A way to make Thin wall sterling bells...

I had one made from sheet sterling. It's still has some heft to it because sterling is 25% denser than brass, but it measures around .014 thickness which is pretty thin.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 6:10 pm

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 6:00 pm

That isn't pull through....

It's one of the couple single basses ever made with a real low B. Good enough! Almost no singles have that anyway.

Hey Burgerbob,
I know you've played some vintage Conns. Didn't you find they had solid low C's when tuned to F and solid low B's when pulled to E.

After a good warmup today I got out my tuner out and nailed an in tune low C. Then pulled to E and nailed an in tune low B. I use a vintage Conn Strobotuner which is calibrated correctly.

I'd love Conn to dust off the old bell mandrels and assembly jigs and re-issue the 70 series basses.

After reading this thread I want a tenor with a TIS carbon fiber REVERSED slide and the German remote water key thing; then a valve sections with an ascending valve to C, and abother valve to Gb in the C/Bb wrap.