sections that play one brand

FOSSIL
Posts: 685
Joined: Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:41 am

Re: sections that play one brand

Post by FOSSIL »

I have never heard of a conductor requesting specific equipment in the UK. All they can ask for is 'small bores' which is a stupid catch all that means use something unlacquered and charge 10-25% extra.

Chris
User avatar
harrisonreed
Posts: 4489
Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2018 12:18 pm
Location: Fort Riley, Kansas
Contact:

Re: sections that play one brand

Post by harrisonreed »

FOSSIL wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 5:08 am I have never heard of a conductor requesting specific equipment in the UK. All they can ask for is 'small bores' which is a stupid catch all that means use something unlacquered and charge 10-25% extra.

Chris
Unlacquered 42B and call it good lol! Maybe UK conductors can't recognize anything other than an 88H wrap? "That's different! Must be small bore!"

"But does it have hand-crafted bell?" (Nerd props to anyone who knows that reference!!)
FOSSIL
Posts: 685
Joined: Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:41 am

Re: sections that play one brand

Post by FOSSIL »

Nah Harrison....unlacquered 50B.... conductors don't have a clue.... but why should they ? They deal with music and ensemble...and get very well paid for it.
The old tyrants had fingers in every pie.... things have moved on...thankfully.

Chris
User avatar
JohnL
Posts: 1563
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:01 am
Contact:

Re: sections that play one brand

Post by JohnL »

FOSSIL wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 5:08 am I have never heard of a conductor requesting specific equipment in the UK. All they can ask for is 'small bores' which is a stupid catch all that means use something unlacquered and charge 10-25% extra.
I can imagine a conductor asking for smaller and everyone just losing a valve (1st and 2nd go to straight horns and bass goes to a single).

I always wondered if my one-off Olds Eb alto was the result of a reverse version of that; maybe the conductor didn't like the visual of the regular small alto bell next to the larger bells of the 2nd and bass trombones.
hornbuilder
Posts: 854
Joined: Wed May 02, 2018 9:20 pm

Re: sections that play one brand

Post by hornbuilder »

In the 16 years I played for the Australian Opera, never once did a conductor ask for specific instruments, or for us to use something other than what we used.
Matthew Walker
Owner/Craftsman, M&W Custom Trombones, LLC, Jackson, Wisconsin.
Former Bass Trombonist, Opera Australia, 1991-2006
Posaunus
Posts: 3424
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:54 pm
Location: California

Re: sections that play one brand

Post by Posaunus »

Sorry Ms violinist - you can't play that Stradivarius in our orchestra; the concertmaster is playing an Amati.
You'll never blend! :horror:
User avatar
paulyg
Posts: 684
Joined: Thu May 17, 2018 12:30 pm

Re: sections that play one brand

Post by paulyg »

Every time I've switched equipment for a situation, it's been a personal decision (for better or worse).

I have a feeling that if a conductor asked me to switch to a smaller horn or something, my knee-jerk reaction would be to ask them to try a smaller ego or something.
Paul Gilles
Aerospace Engineer & Trombone Player
Posaunus
Posts: 3424
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:54 pm
Location: California

Re: sections that play one brand

Post by Posaunus »

Of course a conductor is perfectly within his / her right to ask for any section to "blend" - in terms of volume, intonation, articulation, style, ... You don't want one section member to stick out and not play similarly to their colleagues. This is seldom an issue of the instrument "brand" - more a matter of playing style. Though it could be a matter of equipment type / size (e.g., the 2nd trombonist playing a large-bore in Mozart when the 1st trombonist is playing an alto and the 3rd a smaller instrument than the 2nd). In that case, I would think it's O.K. for the conductor to ask if that discrepancy could be rectified before the concert. :idk:
Bach5G
Posts: 2270
Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2018 6:10 pm

Re: sections that play one brand

Post by Bach5G »

Does anyone have the experience of being told to change horns?
FOSSIL
Posts: 685
Joined: Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:41 am

Re: sections that play one brand

Post by FOSSIL »

paulyg wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 10:30 pm Every time I've switched equipment for a situation, it's been a personal decision (for better or worse).

I have a feeling that if a conductor asked me to switch to a smaller horn or something, my knee-jerk reaction would be to ask them to try a smaller ego or something.
We have it in our contract that small bores can be asked for...nothing more specific. We get paid more if we do that. Because conductors know this, they often ask for small bores....because it costs more, management often refuse. 😁😁😁.

Chris
sf105
Posts: 255
Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2018 12:28 pm

Re: sections that play one brand

Post by sf105 »

FOSSIL wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 2:53 am
paulyg wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 10:30 pm Every time I've switched equipment for a situation, it's been a personal decision (for better or worse).

I have a feeling that if a conductor asked me to switch to a smaller horn or something, my knee-jerk reaction would be to ask them to try a smaller ego or something.
We have it in our contract that small bores can be asked for...nothing more specific. We get paid more if we do that. Because conductors know this, they often ask for small bores....because it costs more, management often refuse. 😁😁😁.
I can see that it often doesn't matter but there are some cases, like Berlioz pedals, where it completely changes the effect.
FOSSIL
Posts: 685
Joined: Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:41 am

Re: sections that play one brand

Post by FOSSIL »

sf105 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 5:38 am
FOSSIL wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 2:53 am
We have it in our contract that small bores can be asked for...nothing more specific. We get paid more if we do that. Because conductors know this, they often ask for small bores....because it costs more, management often refuse. 😁😁😁.
I can see that it often doesn't matter but there are some cases, like Berlioz pedals, where it completely changes the effect.
Well Steve, you know that and I know that, but the accounts department may be deaf to such subtlety. I'm not criticising my company in particular, just saying that professional music making always has an eye on the bottom line.

Chris
MikeS
Posts: 16
Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:04 pm

Re: sections that play one brand

Post by MikeS »

Bach5G wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 11:10 pm Does anyone have the experience of being told to change horns?
When I arrived at university I had a Holton 256 (the Jay Friedman screw bell model) that I dearly loved. I was told that I would either get a Bach 42 or I would not play in any ensemble at the school. This was not a professional situation and it was also several decades ago, but since you asked... :-)
GabrielRice
Posts: 979
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2018 7:20 am
Location: Boston, MA, USA
Contact:

Re: sections that play one brand

Post by GabrielRice »

I've never had a conductor ask for different equipment, but I've certainly had a conductor ask for a different character of sound, and sometimes adjusting equipment was the best way to achieve that.

I have had more than one principal trombonist tell me they prefer it when I play one horn over another. I've had another principal ask for the section to play Bachs on a particular program, and I've had situations in which it happened by discussion and experiment that the section decided to play old Conns.

Not long ago I listened back to my old trombone quartet recordings from college. We all played Bachs at the time. Even to my professional ears now, the blend was outstanding, but that was at least as much because we worked like demons on intonation and balance as it was because we all played the same brand instrument.
WGWTR180
Posts: 1211
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2019 2:32 pm

Re: sections that play one brand

Post by WGWTR180 »

All of these comments above by GabrielRice, Fossil, Hornbuilder, sf105, and some others are what I thought were the typical professional protocols. I've definitely chosen certain instruments for certain situations-some of my instruments only work certain places. I still believe that most of the blending issues come down to the individual players.
sf105
Posts: 255
Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2018 12:28 pm

Re: sections that play one brand

Post by sf105 »

WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 7:43 am All of these comments above by GabrielRice, Fossil, Hornbuilder, sf105, and some others are what I thought were the typical professional protocols. I've definitely chosen certain instruments for certain situations-some of my instruments only work certain places. I still believe that most of the blending issues come down to the individual players.
I am definitely not a pro, which is why I can afford to mess around with different horns. Then there's our own Ed Solomon who likes to kit out his section with a matched set of appropriate horns (still looking forward to trying out my British F tuba with his Betty G Bass one day).
User avatar
spencercarran
Posts: 626
Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2020 1:02 pm
Location: Chicago

Re: sections that play one brand

Post by spencercarran »

FOSSIL wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 2:53 amWe have it in our contract that small bores can be asked for...nothing more specific. We get paid more if we do that. Because conductors know this, they often ask for small bores....because it costs more, management often refuse. 😁😁😁.

Chris
Is there a reason the contract specifies a higher pay rate for playing small bore?
hornbuilder
Posts: 854
Joined: Wed May 02, 2018 9:20 pm

Re: sections that play one brand

Post by hornbuilder »

It is considered a "double".

The 2nd trombonist in my orchestra was paid doubling when he played bass trombone in my place. That was the only "double" in my section though. I didn't get it for playing contra, or tenor, and the 1st didn't get it for alto.
Matthew Walker
Owner/Craftsman, M&W Custom Trombones, LLC, Jackson, Wisconsin.
Former Bass Trombonist, Opera Australia, 1991-2006
Posaunus
Posts: 3424
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:54 pm
Location: California

Re: sections that play one brand

Post by Posaunus »

hornbuilder wrote: ↑Mon Jan 11, 2021 8:22 pm It is considered a "double".

The 2nd trombonist in my orchestra was paid doubling when he played bass trombone in my place. That was the only "double" in my section though. I didn't get it for playing contra, or tenor, and the 1st didn't get it for alto.
I presume these contracts were negotiated by representatives from both sides - each marginally informed about the nature and consequences of some of their (not always logical) decisions! :idk:
Kbiggs
Posts: 1125
Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2018 11:46 am
Location: Vancouver WA

Re: sections that play one brand

Post by Kbiggs »

hornbuilder wrote: ↑Mon Jan 11, 2021 8:22 pm It is considered a "double".

The 2nd trombonist in my orchestra was paid doubling when he played bass trombone in my place. That was the only "double" in my section though. I didn't get it for playing contra, or tenor, and the 1st didn't get it for alto.
Musically, this is absurd. Contra and alto are certainly doubles, just as if a principal flautist were required to play piccolo on a piece, the principal oboe to play cor anglais, or the principal bassoon to play contra bassoon. However, needs must, and all too often, the bottom line wins.
Kenneth Biggs
I have known a great many troubles, but most of them have never happened.
β€”Mark Twain (attributed)
User avatar
BGuttman
Posts: 5895
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2018 7:19 am
Location: Cow Hampshire

Re: sections that play one brand

Post by BGuttman »

Wonder if the strings get doubling fees if they have to play gut strings. :idk:
Bruce Guttman
Merrimack Valley Philharmonic Orchestra
"Almost Professional"
hornbuilder
Posts: 854
Joined: Wed May 02, 2018 9:20 pm

Re: sections that play one brand

Post by hornbuilder »

There were all sorts of details that changed during Enterprise Bargaining with my orchestra, just before I won the job. There were several chairs that were changed from Principal to "Section Soloist", which came with a pay rate reduction as well. That included bass trombone, piccolo, bass clarinet and contra bassoon. Doubling for the use of contra may well have been cut too. Will never know...
Matthew Walker
Owner/Craftsman, M&W Custom Trombones, LLC, Jackson, Wisconsin.
Former Bass Trombonist, Opera Australia, 1991-2006
User avatar
officermayo
Posts: 354
Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2021 5:07 pm
Location: Gadsden, AL

Re: sections that play one brand

Post by officermayo »

I had a "listening with your eyes" situation while with the Parris Island Marine Band in '79.

We were representing the Marine Corps at this mass military band outdoor gig in Delaware. The HMFIC was some Army officer. All the bands were massed in a huge rectangular formation while warming up before the show. As we were playing a Sousa tune (shocked, right?) the Zero stops in front of us with a big smile on his face. Our Band Officer cut the tune, turned around and saluted the guy. He then said that out of all the bands there that day he was most impressed with our little Jarhead group (about 25 Marines). He did have one complaint though. He asked our Captain "How come the guys in the front rank aren't playing together?". The Skipper asked for clarification and the Army officer said, "They sound great - but their slides are all moving differently. You Marines should be able to get it together".

As he turned to leave the entire band broke out laughing and he slunk away, never to approach again the entire gig. Attached is a photo from that gig.

To keep with the thread's subject, we all played Kings. Some were yellow brass and some were silver. About a year later, another officer (this time a Marine from our command) had us all switch to silver Kings for "uniformity" - He didn't seem to mind that the trumpets, baritones and horns were all yellow brass.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
"When in doubt, blow out" - MGySgt M.A. Mayo, Marine Band

The contest entry form said "Void where prohibited", so I peed on the Captain's desk.
CalgaryTbone
Posts: 1049
Joined: Thu May 10, 2018 1:39 pm

Re: sections that play one brand

Post by CalgaryTbone »

The latest ITA Journal has a Q&A section written by Dee Stewart, where he asks questions of some of his prominent former students. He asks them about how they approach instrument choice - there are some really good responses there. Mark Lawrence has a nice take on the "all one brand" idea - he says that there are some advantages to it, and he encouraged it at one point, but he has come to all appreciate some of the colors that come from having a mix of brands in the section. Comfort with what the performer is playing on is an important factor, but matching things up can be nice too.

Jim Scott
Post Reply

Return to β€œInstruments”