Courtois ac402 - 508 Safari

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hyperbolica
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Courtois ac402 - 508 Safari

Post by hyperbolica »

I just got a new-to-me Courtois ac402. I've been on a search for "THE ONE" 508 bore. It's led me on a safari through the Shires MD+, Yammy 891z, Selmer Bolero, 3B SS, 32h, Recording, 16m, all the usual suspects. Since I have to buy the horns I try out, this is going to be the end of the line, I think. I've left out a few, notably the Edwards 302, Lawler, Butler, Getzen 1050 and 3508, XO 1634, Carol Brass, and any Jin Bao derivative out there.

There seems to be a clear line between a couple of different types of horns. The Yamaha, Courtois, and Shires all get a very clear and pure sound. It's a great sound, but it's the only great sound you can get from them. The older horns give you the clear sound, but also allow a bit of an airy, smoky, growly, almost breathless sotta voce sound.

Of the 508s I've played, I think the MD+ and the Courtois were my favorites. If I could add some of the character of the Olds Recording to the Courtois, that would be bonus. I got the Courtois with the red brass bell. If it matters, it's a French 402, not a German one, so this is a few years old. I wrote after a 2019 ATW that I thought the red brass wasn't quite as resonant as the yellow, and I think I would have preferred the yellow bell from a playing standpoint, but when you buy used stuff, you don't always get to pick what's available.

Anyway, the 402 is growing on me. It feels light, and the main bell brace feels farther forward, so the left hand grip is more relaxed. Also, it has a curved ergo slide grip for the left hand, not a feature I've really sought out, but there's a difference with this instrument. The slide is a little narrow, but that's not upsetting me. I can't tell why the grip changes the way I feel about the horn so much, but it does. The balance makes the horn feel light, but it doesn't play like a light horn.

At the beginning of this safari I asked if anyone knew of a small bore that plays like an 88h. It turns out that this is the horn that does that most closely of all the ones I've played.

It also feels pretty even across the range, with has a nice open low range with a solid and secure altissimo. When I first picked it up, I put the mouthpiece I'd been using in my Olds Recording - DE 104c2. This didn't really feel good. So I moved up to a D cup. Better, but not right. The 104e4 makes it feel right at home. This is what I usually play on my 525 bore horns. I added my new Parker 4G stainless rim, which brightens up the sound a little, and it's a really nice combination.

I got this horn on eBay for a very reasonable bid, and it's in better condition than most of the stuff you find on ebay. It has all its lacquer, no real dents, some evidence of repair, but most of all, the slide is in excellent shape. It got a Covid bath as soon as I opened it.

I know Courtois were all the rage for a time at Eastman School, but never really caught on in the rest of the trombone world. I do remember at that ATW in 2019 that the prices seemed to put it out of the usual Conn/King/Bach/Yamaha range, so they aren't prevalent in the used market either. Maybe that's why I got it cheap, small bore doesn't seem like the kind of thing you look for in Europe.

The biggest problem with the horn is the intonation of the partials. F is right on when it's usually high, and high Bb is low when it's usually right on. I don't mind a horn with tuning quirks, as long as it has the same quirks as the rest of my instruments, so adjustments are more predictive rather than reactive. It remains to be seen if I can play this in a group with other people.

I think these tuning characteristics have been similar for most or all of the newer or at least more expensive instruments.
Last edited by hyperbolica on Fri Jan 08, 2021 8:46 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Burgerbob
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Re: Courtois ac402 - 508 Safari

Post by Burgerbob »

402 is the Xtreme? I really liked the couple I have played, like the best 3B examples. Nice heavy slide. If I had to buy a new .508, gun to my head, that would be my first choice with yellow bell. Much more interesting sound than most of the other new competition and nice and easy to play.

Also, I want a 4 wheel drive Camaro! That would be neat.
Aidan Ritchie, LA area player and teacher
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ithinknot
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Re: Courtois ac402 - 508 Safari

Post by ithinknot »

Interesting - thanks for this. How did you feel about the Yamaha?
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Re: Courtois ac402 - 508 Safari

Post by Burgerbob »

ithinknot wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 7:53 pm Interesting - thanks for this. How did you feel about the Yamaha?
I won't speak for Hyper, but they are good playing, comfortable instruments with IMO a very one-dimensional sound. It's a good one but I find it pretty boring.
Aidan Ritchie, LA area player and teacher
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hyperbolica
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Re: Courtois ac402 - 508 Safari

Post by hyperbolica »

Yeah, they call the 402 and 430 the Xtreme, I think. Although I can't say I get the numbering scheme they use. I liked the default sound better than the 3B, and I think it's more even than the 3bs I've played.

The Yamaha was a great horn. Almost as good as the MD+. I don't remember the mouthpiece tendencies with the 891z. It might have struck me as a little sterile, though. I don't think the sound was as interesting as the MD+. I'm often not a Yamaha fan, but the 891z was definitely the best Yamaha I've played.
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Re: Courtois ac402 - 508 Safari

Post by ithinknot »

Thanks both!
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Nobbi
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Re: Courtois ac402 - 508 Safari

Post by Nobbi »

Thanks for this nice test report, hyperbolica.

Most interesting points for me:
1. So far I thought, Courtois is more or less for classical music only. Now, I have something looking foreward to play testing.
2. I think of getting a Shires MD+ .... and you just report about it being nearly your favourite horn, you testen amongst the small bores.

I am kind of not perfectly happy with my Conn 4h .....
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Re: Courtois ac402 - 508 Safari

Post by sacfxdx »

Burgerbob wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 7:35 pm Also, I want a 4 wheel drive Camaro! That would be neat.
How’s this?
98C30FE2-547E-4F15-BE34-DEF52A4AEDBB.jpeg
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hyperbolica
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Re: Courtois ac402 - 508 Safari

Post by hyperbolica »

Oh, that's beautiful. Not sure how you'd get in it, but I bet it would go anywhere!
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Re: Courtois ac402 - 508 Safari

Post by BGuttman »

Does it have a 402 engine? 508? :tongue:
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Re: Courtois ac402 - 508 Safari

Post by harrisonreed »

How far you got that tuning slide pulled out?

Push it in, tune to Ab with the bell. You'll have a different assessment of all those horns, if you haven't been doing that.


If you have been ... The Courtois sounds like more trouble than it's worth

I know you wanted an 88H in .508 ... But why would you want that over a smokey sound? What's the scenario you'd use the horn for?
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Re: Courtois ac402 - 508 Safari

Post by LeTromboniste »

Nobbi wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 3:03 am Thanks for this nice test report, hyperbolica.

Most interesting points for me:
1. So far I thought, Courtois is more or less for classical music only. Now, I have something looking foreward to play testing.
2. I think of getting a Shires MD+ .... and you just report about it being nearly your favourite horn, you testen amongst the small bores.

I am kind of not perfectly happy with my Conn 4h .....
There's quite a bit of jazz being played in France, and French people certainly like their national brands in general!
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hyperbolica
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Re: Courtois ac402 - 508 Safari

Post by hyperbolica »

LeTromboniste wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 7:11 am There's quite a bit of jazz being played in France, and French people certainly like their national brands in general!
Courtois has certainly done a great job with the 402 and I hear good comments about the 430 as well. Do the French still think of Courtois as French when the production is in Germany? Mine was made in France, but I understand the new ones are German.
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Re: Courtois ac402 - 508 Safari

Post by Trevorspaulding376 »

Congrats on the horn I was in on it too and that was a great bargain , years ago I had the ac-602 predecessor to 402 extreme 508 pro level horn and was very impressed with it.

Courtois makes good horns I just picked up the 430 extreme again that I have coming from Chris Klimchak , should be here today and excited to get re acquainted with it
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Re: Courtois ac402 - 508 Safari

Post by LeTromboniste »

hyperbolica wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 7:32 am
LeTromboniste wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 7:11 am There's quite a bit of jazz being played in France, and French people certainly like their national brands in general!
Courtois has certainly done a great job with the 402 and I hear good comments about the 430 as well. Do the French still think of Courtois as French when the production is in Germany? Mine was made in France, but I understand the new ones are German.
It was a somewhat tongue-in-cheek comment. But as far as I know Courtois is still one of the most popular makers there.
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Re: Courtois ac402 - 508 Safari

Post by Nobbi »

Just checked the net here in Europe .... no used Courtois 402 or Shires MD or MD+ availlable.
But I found a shop in Belgium who has both instruments new in stock. I will call them on monday if I can pass by and test them .... if I am lucky, they send them for testing to my home.
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Re: Courtois ac402 - 508 Safari

Post by Burgerbob »

sacfxdx wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 5:55 am
Burgerbob wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 7:35 pm Also, I want a 4 wheel drive Camaro! That would be neat.
How’s this?

98C30FE2-547E-4F15-BE34-DEF52A4AEDBB.jpeg
Well, that's certainly something!
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Re: Courtois ac402 - 508 Safari

Post by Finetales »

The 402 and a new 3B are the only new .508s I've enjoyed. I agree with the previous comments, the 402 is really good. I think if the same person who put a gun to Aidan's head then put a gun to my head, I'd go with the rose bell instead of the yellow, but they're very close and I really like both.
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Re: Courtois ac402 - 508 Safari

Post by timbone »

Hello everyone! I appreciate all the comments about the 402. I am the lead designer for that horn which I developed from my experience with the .508 bore, which I spent over forty years playing as a professional trombonist. This horn is a culmination of ideas I had stemming from my years on a 3B and 16, and a 50’s era 8H. I offer the 8 here as I was a red brass guy for years and played a Getzen Eterna red bell back in the late 70’s. Red brass generally has a considerable warmth, but can get really bright in attacks when you need it, and can control it. Its beautiful. The 402 (like all Courtois) can project with a lot of power. I’ve always liked heavier slides for their sound, and also own six TIS horns, and the key here is a well prepared slide that moves of its own inertia. Today I am torn between red and yellow here as I have played superb examples of both. Its not designed to be a classical horn, although it could be in the right hands, although it will be at home as a jazz, lead, salsa, or rock section horn, or easily a 1st trombone in a wind band. Does the Courtois have a personality? That is up to you the player. Great players that play Courtois like that it allows you to manipulate sound and doesn’t lock you into a particular sound or stereotype. This is very important to players like Jorgen van Rijen and who can argue with his musicality? The best thing I can tell you is about guys that switched on their own accord. Guys like Luke Brimhall who put his SS3B in the closet and hasn’t looked back. Delfeayo Marsalis and Doug Beavers coming off their 16’s and not looking back. Ask those guys what is working for them. Dayl Burnett at Radford College who owns an awesome yellow bell 402T. This is the sound of today with the feel of the older horns. I was involved in the first Xtreme 430 back in 2006 with highly regarded Jim McFalls as the consultant for that horn. Jim is an outstanding player, featured soloist with the Capitol Bones, and a genuine nice guy, and powerful trombonist. Listen to the Maniacal 4 playing their 430’s. Is there a perfect horn out there? Probably not. But the market allows us to have choices and we need to be thankful for that. I have been very fortunate to have a great career as a player, and be around some of the worlds great trombonists, regardless of brand. Ask away, and if you are interested in these trombones, I know where to find them. My best to all of you as we all navigate these waters in 2021. Best wishes and lets make music! T.
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Re: Courtois ac402 - 508 Safari

Post by Nobbi »

Many thanks for the nice words on the 402,Timbone, I love history of instruments.
Maybe cou can help me out with the possibility to try 402 here in Germany, I couldn't find a close dealer having one to be play tested.

I think about trading in my 1940's Conn 4h since I can't get more than just warm with it ... next week I will receive a Rath R1 to play test and the 402 would be my other choice.
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Re: Courtois ac402 - 508 Safari

Post by Andre1966tr »

I am sure the 402 is a nice trombone...
When I hear Jiggs, Jay Jay, Albert Mangelsdorff, Watrous, Rosolino etc. ...and when I think about my search for the perfect trombone for 40 years (including an AC430 which sounded nice but did not play in tune) I have come to the conclusion that a plain old KIng, Conn or Bach does everything you will ever need.
I know some guys with new trombones who sounded better with the old ones but no one tells them.
It is always fun to try out new horns but never forget to "look back"...
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Re: Courtois ac402 - 508 Safari

Post by hyperbolica »

@timbone, Thanks for your efforts on the 402 and your writings here. I'm really enjoying the horn. I have to say that the small diameter main bell brace is genius. I think that combined with the curved grip makes this horn comfortable and balanced in a way that others are not. That's a benefit I didn't expect.

The intonation is a little different from what I'm used to. Different, but not by a lot. I'll be able to play this with others, but it will take additional time to react to the tuning rather than just using muscle memory - that will take some time to develop. Most of my playing has been with vintage Conns, 88h, 79h, which have their own (different) distinct tuning characteristics.

The only other item would be the width of the slide. I recognize it fits with its competition, but I'd prefer a wider 36b sort of slide.
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Re: Courtois ac402 - 508 Safari

Post by timbone »

Hyper- Thank you- and to note- every horn I have intonation wise plays different. You just have to use the ear and adapt. And I don't stay on one horn, I am constantly changing based on the call. With regards to the width of the slide, once you venture into 36b land of course we are talking about .525 bore which is a different beast and mates with the .547 bore. I usually tune an inch out from closed and use my thumb as a gauge. I have the Conns with the spring in the barrel and am comfortable playing horns with and without.
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Re: Courtois ac402 - 508 Safari

Post by Tromgone »

timbone wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 7:43 pm Hello everyone! I appreciate all the comments about the 402. I am the lead designer for that horn which I developed from my experience with the .508 bore, which I spent over forty years playing as a professional trombonist. This horn is a culmination of ideas I had stemming from my years on a 3B and 16, and a 50’s era 8H. I offer the 8 here as I was a red brass guy for years and played a Getzen Eterna red bell back in the late 70’s. Red brass generally has a considerable warmth, but can get really bright in attacks when you need it, and can control it. Its beautiful. The 402 (like all Courtois) can project with a lot of power. I’ve always liked heavier slides for their sound, and also own six TIS horns, and the key here is a well prepared slide that moves of its own inertia. Today I am torn between red and yellow here as I have played superb examples of both. Its not designed to be a classical horn, although it could be in the right hands, although it will be at home as a jazz, lead, salsa, or rock section horn, or easily a 1st trombone in a wind band. Does the Courtois have a personality? That is up to you the player. Great players that play Courtois like that it allows you to manipulate sound and doesn’t lock you into a particular sound or stereotype. This is very important to players like Jorgen van Rijen and who can argue with his musicality? The best thing I can tell you is about guys that switched on their own accord. Guys like Luke Brimhall who put his SS3B in the closet and hasn’t looked back. Delfeayo Marsalis and Doug Beavers coming off their 16’s and not looking back. Ask those guys what is working for them. Dayl Burnett at Radford College who owns an awesome yellow bell 402T. This is the sound of today with the feel of the older horns. I was involved in the first Xtreme 430 back in 2006 with highly regarded Jim McFalls as the consultant for that horn. Jim is an outstanding player, featured soloist with the Capitol Bones, and a genuine nice guy, and powerful trombonist. Listen to the Maniacal 4 playing their 430’s. Is there a perfect horn out there? Probably not. But the market allows us to have choices and we need to be thankful for that. I have been very fortunate to have a great career as a player, and be around some of the worlds great trombonists, regardless of brand. Ask away, and if you are interested in these trombones, I know where to find them. My best to all of you as we all navigate these waters in 2021. Best wishes and lets make music! T.
Timbone, thanks for all your work on creating such a great horn. I’ve been looking to complete my Courtois collection with a 402 for several years but I can’t justify spending $3k on a new jazz horn when my current 3B is so solid. Are there any places to find used horns? I’ve tried eBay, Craigslist, reverb, fb marketplace, etc but I can never find a 402. Any help is appreciated!
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hyperbolica
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Re: Courtois ac402 - 508 Safari

Post by hyperbolica »

I'm the OP for this thread, and I scored this one on eBay for $560 (it was owned by BAC) . I think a lot of people aren't familiar with Courtois, and didn't want to take a chance on this one. Keep your eyes open and watch the big shops, Dillons, Baltimore brass, Brass Exchange, Brass Ark, Schmitt, and a few others. You might even watch European shops like Thomanns. You just have to keep watching.
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