83H

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bigbandbone
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83H

Post by bigbandbone »

Anyone ever hear of an 83H? Couldn't find it listed on the Conn Loyalist site.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-Conn-83H- ... SwqD9f-Rr5
stewbones43
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Re: 83H

Post by stewbones43 »

Hidden away in the Conn Loyalist site, in the "Brass Related Articles" is a link to "The Post Elkhart Years". There you will find some basic information about various later Conn instruments.
AS we are all so busy with concerts, gigs, rehearsals etc. :shuffle: , here is a link:-

https://cderksen.home.xs4all.nl/ConnArt27-TRB.html

Cheers

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Re: 83H

Post by FOSSIL »

I've owned a couple 40 years ago. On paper an in-line red bell 73H..... In reality most were rubbish...real rubbish. I tried ONE good one, and that was damaged.

Chris
Thrawn22
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Re: 83H

Post by Thrawn22 »

To me, as a Conn enthusiast, the appeal of having an 83H is for collecting reasons due to rarity. But i have heard what Fossil has stated which is 83Hs aren't that great. The 111Hs fall into that category too.

Honesty, if 83Hs were any good, you would see more of them and see more posts praising them. But who knows, this maybe a diamond in the rough.
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Re: 83H

Post by bigbandbone »

ThanksπŸ‘
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Re: 83H

Post by Hobart »

I hear the 83H either is awful, or plays like an early 112H, which you might as well buy at that point. It might have been a good horn with better quality control, it was the basis for the Yamaha 613G, but given Abeline's rather shoddy quality control, you could do better.
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Re: 83H

Post by FOSSIL »

Wow ! I didn't know the Yammy 613G was based on the Conn 83H....where did you get that ?
The 83H valve design is very close to the indy design used by Larry Minick in the 70s....I know because I have one of Larry's sets...but I have no connection to the 83H.

Chris
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Re: 83H

Post by Burgerbob »

FOSSIL wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 3:23 pm Wow ! I didn't know the Yammy 613G was based on the Conn 83H....where did you get that ?
The 83H valve design is very close to the indy design used by Larry Minick in the 70s....I know because I have one of Larry's sets...but I have no connection to the 83H.

Chris
The OG 613, I think. The H and G variants are pretty different.

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Re: 83H

Post by FOSSIL »

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 3:26 pm
FOSSIL wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 3:23 pm Wow ! I didn't know the Yammy 613G was based on the Conn 83H....where did you get that ?
The 83H valve design is very close to the indy design used by Larry Minick in the 70s....I know because I have one of Larry's sets...but I have no connection to the 83H.

Chris
The OG 613, I think. The H and G variants are pretty different.

Image
Yes, but that is a different valve wrap on the F side and the basic instrument is larger in the bell and has a shorter playing slide....otherwise....a clone...

Chris
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Re: 83H

Post by Burgerbob »

FOSSIL wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 3:47 pm
Burgerbob wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 3:26 pm

The OG 613, I think. The H and G variants are pretty different.

Image
Yes, but that is a different valve wrap on the F side and the basic instrument is larger in the bell and has a shorter playing slide....otherwise....a clone...

Chris
Your guess is as good as mine... they look similar, but that's probably where it ends.
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Re: 83H

Post by Fruitysloth »

I had an 83H that had been rebuilt by Benn Hansson, and it played alright, and I think that was because of the design, Benn does fantastic work. As a doubler on bass bone, it was fine, but I still think it was pretty stuffy in either of the valve registers.
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Re: 83H

Post by Thrawn22 »

It wouldn't suprise me if Yamaha copied the 83H and changed a few things to make it dissimilar.
6H (K series)
6H (early 60s)
4H/5H custom bell
78H ('53)
78H (K series)
78H/36BG /2547 slide
8H
88HN
71H (dependant valves)
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Re: 83H

Post by FOSSIL »

Thrawn22 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 7:36 pm It wouldn't suprise me if Yamaha copied the 83H and changed a few things to make it dissimilar.
But that is pure conjecture. From measurements of Yamaha parts that I have taken in the past, that company has gone it's own way with trombone design from the beginning. It's brief connection with Schilke in the 70's and 80's had Yamaha providing trombones for Schilke.
Don't even suggest that the original Yamaha bass was a copy of the Conn 72H.... no single part is equivalent between the two instruments, yet by constant repetition, this has become accepted wisdom.

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Re: 83H

Post by harrisonreed »

Yamaha did copy instruments in the past, and had a pretty close copy an 88H in the late 70s. The YSL-648 and 648-R. I've played one of these, the red brass version, and it's just like an 88H with a modern leadpipe. Very minor differences in the crook, bracing, and oversleeves. Lindberg briefly left his Minick 88H for a version of this horn with the yamaha valve wrap, but I don't think that lasted long at all.

http://www.benjibones.com/1979-yamaha-ysl-648/


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greenbean
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Re: 83H

Post by greenbean »

FOSSIL wrote: ↑Mon Jan 11, 2021 2:40 am But that is pure conjecture. From measurements of Yamaha parts that I have taken in the past, that company has gone it's own way with trombone design from the beginning. It's brief connection with Schilke in the 70's and 80's had Yamaha providing trombones for Schilke.
Don't even suggest that the original Yamaha bass was a copy of the Conn 72H.... no single part is equivalent between the two instruments, yet by constant repetition, this has become accepted wisdom.

Chris
Also conjecture is the often repeated claim that the Yamaha 643 was a "copy" or "clone" of the Conn 88H. It is a clone only in the sense that it has a closed wrap F-att and red brass bell. All the components of the horn actually not very similar looking. And anyone who has played a 643 knows that they play NOTHING like an 88H. Other than playing like a tenor trombone.

Edit: My comment also applies to the two 648 models that Yamaha made. Neither are copies of the 88H.
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Re: 83H

Post by Thrawn22 »

Thrawn22 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 7:36 pm It wouldn't suprise me if Yamaha copied the 83H and changed a few things to make it dissimilar.
I stand by my connjecture.
6H (K series)
6H (early 60s)
4H/5H custom bell
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Re: 83H

Post by BGuttman »

greenbean wrote: ↑Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:06 am
Also conjecture is the often repeated claim that the Yamaha 643 was a "copy" or "clone" of the Conn 88H. It is a clone only in the sense that it has a closed wrap F-att and red brass bell. All the components of the horn actually not very similar looking. And anyone who has played a 643 knows that they play NOTHING like an 88H. Other than playing like a tenor trombone.

Edit: My comment also applies to the two 648 models that Yamaha made. Neither are copies of the 88H.
Note that different does not mean bad. The 643 is actually a nice horn in its own right. Just not an 88H.
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Re: 83H

Post by FOSSIL »

Thrawn22 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:35 am
Thrawn22 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 7:36 pm It wouldn't suprise me if Yamaha copied the 83H and changed a few things to make it dissimilar.
I stand by my connjecture.
Why ? Even at the most basic level, the 83H shares the long playing slide of the later 70H, and 71H and 72H and 73H... no Yamaha has that. The 83H therefore has a shorter bell section and the same tighter flare as the other Conns...no Yamaha has that.

I like the Connjecture spelling...

Chris
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Re: 83H

Post by JohnL »

Terms like "copy" and "clone" get thrown are rather indiscriminately at times.

Almost no one starts with a truly clean slate; some reference to prior is pretty much essential unless you want to go through the agony of reinventing the wheel. You look at what people are playing and take that as a starting point. I have no doubt that the folks at Yamaha dissected an 88H or two while they were developing the 648's. But a true "copy" in the sense of trying to duplicate the original in every way? I think not.

I kinda like to think of some guys sitting in the R&D offices at Yamaha looking at the "new" 83H and having a conversation like this:
#1: Well, there's the new Conn bass trombone. So far, I haven't heard much good about it.
#2: If no one likes it, why are we even looking at it? I could see looking something that most people like, like we did with the 88H, but this thing?
#1: We need to learn from their mistakes. People like the older Conn bass trombones; what went wrong here?
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Re: 83H

Post by sf105 »

FOSSIL wrote: ↑Mon Jan 11, 2021 11:14 am
Thrawn22 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:35 am

I stand by my connjecture.
Why ? Even at the most basic level, the 83H shares the long playing slide of the later 70H, and 71H and 72H and 73H... no Yamaha has that. The 83H therefore has a shorter bell section and the same tighter flare as the other Conns...no Yamaha has that.

I like the Connjecture spelling...

Chris
My frankenconn has an 83H slide because that was what was around at the time (should have cannibalised an older horn if I'd known). It took forever to find a repairer (Gale Lawson) who could make it work properly, and it's rotted faster than older horns of mine. It also turns out that I spent years fighting the really bad leadpipe that came with it (thanks FOSSIL for the insight).
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Re: 83H

Post by Thrawn22 »

FOSSIL wrote: ↑Mon Jan 11, 2021 11:14 am
Thrawn22 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:35 am

I stand by my connjecture.
Why ? Even at the most basic level, the 83H shares the long playing slide of the later 70H, and 71H and 72H and 73H... no Yamaha has that. The 83H therefore has a shorter bell section and the same tighter flare as the other Conns...no Yamaha has that.

I like the Connjecture spelling...

Chris
I agree that the long slide is primarily unique to the Conn 70 series horns. I myself have not seen an 83H in person or know much about it's spec's (due in part to it's rarity).

However, as i stated in my original post concerning Yamaha copying horns, in my personal experience and consultations with instrument tech friends, Yamaha has (or had) the tendency to take some design from certain horn makers and then change some things to make them "their" design. A lot of their older jazz horns seemed to be Bach bell designs with Kingish slide crooks.

It also could be some of my bias against Yamaha coloring this observation.

I wish some trombone maker would clone Conn 70 series horns. If they did, parts for my 72H would be easier to get.
6H (K series)
6H (early 60s)
4H/5H custom bell
78H ('53)
78H (K series)
78H/36BG /2547 slide
8H
88HN
71H (dependant valves)
72H
35H alto (K series)
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Savio
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Re: 83H

Post by Savio »

I tried that conn 83h long time ago in a workshop. I didn't like it, but maybe some of them was ok. I have played both Yamaha and conn and can't see any similar aspects. But they are both nice instruments in their own way.

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Re: 83H

Post by marccromme »

Thrawn22 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 11, 2021 7:24 pm However, as i stated in my original post concerning Yamaha copying horns, in my personal experience and consultations with instrument tech friends, Yamaha has (or had) the tendency to take some design from certain horn makers and then change some things to make them "their" design. ...

It also could be some of my bias against Yamaha coloring this observation.
This process is called evolution. Nothing odd about it. Most of technical development in any field is and has be done like that for millennia.

Please don't hold it against any trombone manufacture to use sound common sense and proven evolution concepts ...
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