Copies, Clones and the mystery of 'bones

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robcat2075
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Re: Copies, Clones and the mystery of 'bones

Post by robcat2075 »

Aside...

I am very surprised that the duration of patent protection has not been the object of intense corporate lobbying efforts for extension the way that the duration of copyright protection has been.

It wouldn't change the trombone industry much but I am astonished that the prescription drug makers have not done for goldmines like Viagra or Xanax what Disney did for "Steamboat Willie".
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Re: Copies, Clones and the mystery of 'bones

Post by tbonesullivan »

Some of this goes back to the whole 'reinvent the wheel' argument. If you're developing a trombone line, you want a horn that people are going to buy, so generally you're going to see what people are playing on, and start from there. Then Yamaha was designing their original trombone line, they looked to see what people were playing at that time, and started their design / engineering process based on that.

If I remember right, Bach 42 came about pretty much to compete with the Conn 88H. Bach had the 36, which VB considered to be THE orchestral trombone. They also had the Bach 45, a "small bass" along the lines of the King 5B. Well, to compete with the 88H they took the valve section from the 36, and the slide from the 45. They rolled out the 36 bell another inch, and BOOOM, Bach 42. I'm sure there was more to it than that, but that's the story that I was told.

If you look at the evolution of bass trombones, what one company did definitely influenced the others. One of the things that disappoints me the most is seeing how Conn and Holton, which did SO MUCH for the evolution of the bass trombone, are now just there to fill up space in the Conn-Selmer Catalog, while Bach, whose bass trombones, while great, were hardly revolutionary, are now the "flagship models". Even though they still sell that monstrosity of a dependent bass with the smallest possible wrap in existence.
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Re: Copies, Clones and the mystery of 'bones

Post by JohnL »

In US patent law, There is such a thing as a "Design Patent".
From the Wikipedia article
In the United States, a design patent is a form of legal protection granted to the ornamental design of a functional item. Design patents are a type of industrial design right. Ornamental designs of jewelry, furniture, beverage containers (Fig. 1) and computer icons are examples of objects that are covered by design patents.
Olds took out a design patent on the flared braces they used on the Super.
robcat2075 wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:14 amI am very surprised that the duration of patent protection has not been the object of intense corporate lobbying efforts for extension the way that the duration of copyright protection has been.

It wouldn't change the trombone industry much but I am astonished that the prescription drug makers have not done for goldmines like Viagra or Xanax what Disney did for "Steamboat Willie".
I think part of that is that the pharmaceutical companies would love to see their own patents extended indefinitely, but that would mean that they'd also be unable to introduce their own versions of products that other companies have protected under patents.
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Re: Copies, Clones and the mystery of 'bones

Post by spencercarran »

Process patents (eg if you come up with some new method of annealing the bell) exist as well. The expectation that other countries will be interested in following US laws/regulations on IP, without having any say in writing those rules, is a strange assumption though.
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Re: Copies, Clones and the mystery of 'bones

Post by FOSSIL »

Well, an interesting debate....a few things stand out to me... the Chinese government subsidise their steel industry so therefore they treat their music industry the same way....a huge and very questionable leap there...does the US government treat steel and musical instruments the same way ? There are those that see the music industry as a substitute weapon of war, or at least some kind of competition of nations...it doesn't work like that... without China the beloved Shires would no longer exist, probably no Bach or Conn either...not even Rath on our little island..... there's little profit in high end trombones....the student stuff and intermediate stuff subsidizes the high end stuff.
Someone who is not willing to play copies or clones, is actually playing copies, even though they don't realise it.
For those of you who think makers are employed in harsh rivalry with each other, check who the dealers hang with at the next ITF....other dealers....who have much more in common with each other than the strange people who play the instruments....

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Re: Copies, Clones and the mystery of 'bones

Post by BGuttman »

spencercarran wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:42 pm Process patents (eg if you come up with some new method of annealing the bell) exist as well. The expectation that other countries will be interested in following US laws/regulations on IP, without having any say in writing those rules, is a strange assumption though.
There is an international covenant that recognizes patent rights in the participating countries.

Not all countries participate in this cooperation. I used to do research in photographic materials which required searches of patent literature for teachings. We found that a number of Japanese photographic patents were translations of American patents but assigned to Japanese companies. So Kodak couldn't compete with Fujifilm using Kodak's very own technology.

As to the sunset of patent protection, that was part of the patent bargain. Patents are of necessity limited duration protection. In return for disclosing the technology the inventor gets exclusive use for 17 years. After that the technology is released to Public Domain. Many pharmaceutical companies try to extend their patent protection by making a small improvement to the product and patenting that. Many lawsuits result from disputations on whether the generic maker is copying the original patent (legal) versus the improvement patent.
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Re: Copies, Clones and the mystery of 'bones

Post by robcat2075 »

All the arguments for keeping patent protections short could have been made for keeping copyright protection short. They probably were made.

And yet, copyright protection has been hugely extended. Patent protection, not.
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Re: Copies, Clones and the mystery of 'bones

Post by brassmedic »

soseggnchips wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 6:24 am Where did Riker's trombone come from? Are King still in business in the distant future? Is it a genuine antique? Or did it come out of the replicator? What are the ethics of replicated trom-clones? Discuss.
I think Roddenberry's original concept was that in "the future", we will have eliminated the need for material wealth and exchange of money, so one would assume patents would have little meaning. Of course I'm not aware of it ever being explained exactly how this system would work, and it's constantly contradicted by characters in the series engaging in activities that are obviously exchanging wealth - playing poker, for example.

I also don't recall them explaining whether it was possible to distinguish a replica from the original item. If not, then antiques would have no value.
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Re: Copies, Clones and the mystery of 'bones

Post by brassmedic »

BGuttman wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:35 am For Soseggnchips, you can't patent a "trombone". That idea went into Public Domain in the 1500s.
There was a member here who claimed he was going to patent ALL trombones in the keys of D or Db. Of course we have examples of trombones in D and Db made hundreds of years ago. I don't think we ever heard a follow up from him on how that went. Not well, I'd imagine.
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Re: Copies, Clones and the mystery of 'bones

Post by Bach5G »

Riker’s 3B will be considered “vintage” in the 24th century.

Most people will be of the opinion that 3Bs built after 2250, when production was outsourced to Betelgeuse 3, suck.
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Re: Copies, Clones and the mystery of 'bones

Post by Burgerbob »

Bach5G wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 2:35 pm

Most people will be of the opinion that 3Bs built after 2250, when production was outsourced to Betelgeuse 3, suck.
Ugh, we need to stop perpetuating this. I played some at Intergalactic Trombone Festival 2304 and they were great horns. Or maybe it was at Stellar Trombone Symposium...
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Re: Copies, Clones and the mystery of 'bones

Post by robcat2075 »

https://www.justia.com/intellectual-pr ... uirements/
"To be patentable, the invention must be statutory, novel, useful, and nonobvious. "
Statutory” simply refers to the question of whether the invention involves subject matter that can be patented. Among the subject matter that can be patented are processes, machines, manufactured articles, and compositions of matter.
...Examples of clearly non-statutory inventions are data structures, nonfunctional descriptive material like books or music, electromagnetic signals, laws of nature, and other abstract ideas.

Novelty ... it must be new and not the subject of a public disclosure more than a year before your patent application filing date.
the subject matter must be “useful.” This traditionally meant three things: practical utility, operability, and beneficial utility. ... Generally, a process, machine, or composition must operate to perform an intended purpose in the real world to meet this requirement.
Non-obviousness
...The examiner will decide whether the invention would be considered obvious to somebody with ordinary skill in the art. This can be a difficult analysis, involving a review of previous patents of inventions similar to the invention for which you seek a patent.

...Simple changes to earlier products that are not patentable include substituting materials or changing sizes.
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Re: Copies, Clones and the mystery of 'bones

Post by BGuttman »

Don't be a Philadelphia Lawyer, Holmén.

There's a lot more than it seems on the surface.

Sometimes a person may pursue a patent just to deter somebody else from using the technology. Sometimes they may pursue a patent just to establish some kind of presence in the field. Sometimes it's to throw a competitor off-track. There are even people who pursue patents simply to threaten lawsuits or foce licensing deals (sometimes referred to as "patent trolls").

Ideally, if you come up with a unique and beneficial solution to a problem you can create a short period of monopoly using a patent. But everybody seems to try to find a way around the spirit to pervert the letter.
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Re: Copies, Clones and the mystery of 'bones

Post by robcat2075 »

There is always more, but even that small amount seemed not to be in use in the conversation.
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Re: Copies, Clones and the mystery of 'bones

Post by Thrawn22 »

Bach5G wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 2:35 pm Riker’s 3B will be considered “vintage” in the 24th century.

Most people will be of the opinion that 3Bs built after 2250, when production was outsourced to Betelgeuse 3, suck.
Didn't Riker play a 2B?
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Re: Copies, Clones and the mystery of 'bones

Post by Finetales »

Burgerbob wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 2:37 pm
Bach5G wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 2:35 pm

Most people will be of the opinion that 3Bs built after 2250, when production was outsourced to Betelgeuse 3, suck.
Ugh, we need to stop perpetuating this. I played some at Intergalactic Trombone Festival 2304 and they were great horns. Or maybe it was at Stellar Trombone Symposium...
Sure it wasn't the Federation Trombone Workshop?
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Re: Copies, Clones and the mystery of 'bones

Post by Burgerbob »

Finetales wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 7:45 pm
Burgerbob wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 2:37 pm

Ugh, we need to stop perpetuating this. I played some at Intergalactic Trombone Festival 2304 and they were great horns. Or maybe it was at Stellar Trombone Symposium...
Sure it wasn't the Federation Trombone Workshop?
Was that in the Neutral Zone last year? I didn't make it
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Re: Copies, Clones and the mystery of 'bones

Post by soseggnchips »

Here's a question... for anyone who's played one of the modern 'clones', do they actually do a reasonable impersonation of the original? Or do they just look similar?

I've not played any Chinese horns other than student models, so don't really know how successful the 'clones' are. I have played plenty of Raths though, some of which were intended to capture the essence of classic designs. But while some are clearly more Bach-inspired or Conn-inspired they all also had their own distinct character - they were all clearly Raths.

It seems like there's a lot more to copying a horn than just duplicating the dimensions and materials. You can order a Bach 42 with a gold brass bell and a nickel slide, change out the leadpipe and slide crook, put a different valve on it - and at the end of it all, it still feels like a Bach 42. For that matter, you can pick up a 36 or a 50 and feel the family resemblance.

So how practical is it to actually copy a horn? Can you just build something to the same specs, or do you need to go through an R&D process until you end up with something that feels right? At that point, can you even really call it a clone?

These are not rhetorical questions, by the way - if anyone here builds horns and has ever tried to copy one of the classics, I'd love to know how it went!

Thrawn22 wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 6:14 pm
Bach5G wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 2:35 pm Riker’s 3B will be considered “vintage” in the 24th century.

Most people will be of the opinion that 3Bs built after 2250, when production was outsourced to Betelgeuse 3, suck.
Didn't Riker play a 2B?
Maybe this would be a better fit in the 88HNV thread, but if Conn-Selmer really want to do a lazy special edition, they should put out a Riker signature model. Bog standard King but with the Starfleet insignia on the bell. I'd buy 3.
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Re: Copies, Clones and the mystery of 'bones

Post by brumpone »

Borg standard King, maybe?
I guess the Q series is banned on Federation vessels
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Re: Copies, Clones and the mystery of 'bones

Post by Peacemate »

soseggnchips wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:37 am Maybe this would be a better fit in the 88HNV thread, but if Conn-Selmer really want to do a lazy special edition, they should put out a Riker signature model. Bog standard King but with the Starfleet insignia on the bell. I'd buy 3.
Actually cool bell engravings would be nice. Imagine every year having a special engraving, not necessarily with a licensed things such as Starfleet insignia, but also stuff like animals. Imagine how cool it would be to have a "Charging Bull 88H" or "Bald Eagle 88H". Would also make it easier to identify the year instead of memorizing a list of number for each manufacturer. Since the bells are already computer engraved it probably wouldn't add to much to the cost, and it might increase demand for certain years.

Looking up CNC bell engraving Conn-Selmer says it takes 2 minutes to do a Bach Stradivarius trumpet and 14 for an Artisan.
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Re: Copies, Clones and the mystery of 'bones

Post by Slidennis »

harrisonreed wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 5:36 am
Fidbone wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 2:45 am Harrisonreed, you have way too much time on your hands :roll: :o :geek:
It's COVID though. Don't hate.
Chris, at a time you went away from Rath... Even bought an Inderbinen... So...
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Re: Copies, Clones and the mystery of 'bones

Post by baileyman »

This is so funny. The copyright nannies are out in full force today!

Meanwhile, the capitalists who accumulate intellectual property of all kinds are the ones with their knees on the necks of the working musicians. Go figure...
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Re: Copies, Clones and the mystery of 'bones

Post by elmsandr »

soseggnchips wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:37 am Here's a question... for anyone who's played one of the modern 'clones', do they actually do a reasonable impersonation of the original? Or do they just look similar?
...
When he flies over to play with the Brass Band of Battle Creek, Mark Frost plays a Rath R900 rather than trying to fly with his custom Rath for the last couple of years.

Does just fine.

Cheers,
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Re: Copies, Clones and the mystery of 'bones

Post by Fidbone »

Slidennis wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 5:27 am
harrisonreed wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 5:36 am

It's COVID though. Don't hate.
Chris, at a time you went away from Rath... Even bought an Inderbinen... So...
...... So what? :idk:
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Re: Copies, Clones and the mystery of 'bones

Post by Slidennis »

And what about Bach putting its name on a frankenbone made out of Benge 165 parts, with a dual-bore slide (from Conn, maybe?)... Bach Soloist 210?

I even suspect the Conn 52H bell to be a Benge 190 bell (cut at the rim side, maybe), so large throated...
Weird to put a medium bore slide on that beast... (remainings of king 3B+ slides?)

The Selmer company can put one of their brand name on some chinese built trombones either...
They put a Bach name on a german built horn made out of chinese parts... the Bach TB-450B...

At times, Besson low quality series were built by Amati...

Novelty is a really scarce thing...



Funny to think that a high end Toyota will be named a Lexus, for Mazda, a Xedos, for Yamaha, a Xeno, for Jupiter an XO, etc, etc...
Denis the musician wannabe trying to depart from gear geeking... :shuffle:
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Re: Copies, Clones and the mystery of 'bones

Post by Finetales »

Burgerbob wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 7:49 pm Was that in the Neutral Zone last year? I didn't make it
Yep, it's always fun to try the Romulan horns. Quite the commute though.
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Re: Copies, Clones and the mystery of 'bones

Post by Savio »

I have a Chinese bass trombone somewhere that people say is a King 7B clone but it has nothing to do with the 7B. Same wrap but everything else is different. And plays very different. I don't think there is any real copy of anything out there. Some ideas might be same. When some did the more straight wrap on valves (Minick?) it didn't take long time before everyone made similar. When somebody put two valves on the bass trombone, it didn't take long time before everyone made it. But all in all, there hasn't been much big development's in trombone design the last hundreds years? Or has it?

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Re: Copies, Clones and the mystery of 'bones

Post by Bach5G »

The Borg stuff is crazy.
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Re: Copies, Clones and the mystery of 'bones

Post by harrisonreed »

Bach5G wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 1:01 pm The Borg stuff is crazy.
It's Swedish though. People in Sweden don't even touch those.
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