Thomann Alto

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imsevimse
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Thomann Alto

Post by imsevimse »

A week ago I decided to do something I've never done before. I decided to order a real cheap Chinese trombone from Thomann. I did that just to know.

I've heard some still say they are bad but there are also others that say they are quite alright for students. I decided to have a go and bought a Thomann Alto. Price was 2.090 skr and that also included shipping from Germany to Sweden. For that price I could not get anything used that is playable from eBay today. At least half of it would be for international shipping alone. About 31% on the final price with shipping would also be added for different taxes and fees. Finally our postservice would have my pay yet another fee when I collect. I think that fee still is 75 skr. I guess If I could buy something for just about 500 skr I still would have to pay another 1.500 skr just to get it here.

It is a stencil and looks about the same as many other Chinese Altos. Some say it is a copy of the "Slokar" model. I got it two days ago and did not expect much.

The first thing I noticed was the slide was perfect. Next thing is it plays remarkably well and after that I'm totally blown away. I have a Bach 39 from the 80ies that I've learned to play. That alto has partials spread all over the horn. I was told Altos are like that. I have no problem with the Bach 39 today and I like the horn a lot. I've done about 15 Mozart's Requiem with that horn.

If I compare the Bach to this Thomann Alto then the Thomann horn lines up the partials a lot better. The fourth position is also right at the bell which is a good thing. This is not the same with the Bach 39. The Bach 39 came with a 15E that was too small so after a lot of experimenting I bought a Bach 12E instead and have allways played that piece since. I own about six other alto mouthpieces of different brands but I still like that Bach 12E best.

I have never liked C-cups with the Bach and I have experimented a lot to be able to play that alto. This horn on the other hand works with both the small Bach 12E and the 11C-ish "Nils Landgren" Yamaha that is my main mouthpiece to day on small tenor. It probably works with other Bach C cups too. The horn came with a mouthpiece that was stamped 12C. This can not be a Bach 12C copy because the rim is a bit wider. It is probably more like a 11C. The mouthpiece is also good. The case is a cheap Thomann case. It serves its purpose.

The sound changes with the larger mouthpiece and becomes then more of a small tenor, but that may again be what you want sometimes. All in all this little cheap alto is awesome especially considering the price. Now I'm thinking of buying another stencil from Thomann. I'm not afraid to buy unseen from Thomann since their customers support and service makes it possible to return an instrument.

A couple of odd things with the Thomann alto. First it is very nose heavy. It could need a weight. I'm not going to get that because I think I can handle it, but another player might want that. Next is the tuning slide needs to be as far out as it goes to be able to be in tune with the Bach 12E. I usually have my tuning slides out about 1 cm on most modern horns, the Bach 39 alto included. If I use my regular 11c-ish tenor mouthpiece I need to push the tuning slide a cm. With the Bach 39 that becomes a problem because it is then often a bit flat. The Thomann of course has not that problem.

It is too early to say which horn is the best, but which horn that is easiest to play is obvious. The Thomann has the positions lined up real good.

Update:

/Tom
Last edited by imsevimse on Fri Jul 08, 2022 5:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.
MrHCinDE
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Re: Thomann Alto

Post by MrHCinDE »

Nice write-up.

Is it the SL-35? I tried one in the Thomann showroom and thought it was very playable for the money.

The slide on the one I tried wasn‘t great so perhaps you got lucky with yours.

How do you like the sound, especially in comparison to your Bach 39? Personally I thought the one I tried was a little bit tinny and the ‚luxury’ model from Thomann (TEB 480) was more to my taste, still for the money the SL-35 was more than usable and with a bit of familiarisation and a different mouthpiece I may have been able to get a better sound out of it.
imsevimse
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Re: Thomann Alto

Post by imsevimse »

It is the SL-35 I bought. The slide is very good it is 10/10. I may have been lucky or it might be something that's not going to last. I don't know if plating will fall off the inners. Nothing indicates it will happen at this time and I have only one word for this slide and that word is "perfect".

The sound? Yes, that is yet to investigate. As I said this horn sounds good with both my 12E and any of the 11C-ish mouthpieces. If you want a more tenorish sound of the alto then the SL-35 is better compared to the Bach 39. I do like the Bach 39 sound. Many people think that the Bach 39 is thin since it is a real smalll alto compared to other modern altos. I need to play the SL-35 in an ensamble to be able to decide what I really think of the sound. At the moment I think I willl like the Bach 39 better.

The alto sound I hear today from Altos is not the alto sound I favour. I like the Branimir Slokar sound on the LP's he made in late 70-ies and early 80-ies. That neat sound is not what I hear today. Often the alto sound I hear is a bit unfocused. It reminds me of a small tenor that's not played in the pitch-centre. I think this sound is because most use larger mouthpieces and also that they favour that sound, but I want a more lush sound. In my head Branimir Slokar is the only one I can think of with that sound. I do not think the Thomann can do that sound but we will see.

The mouthpiece is of importance of the alto sound. As I said I use the Bach 12E and this gives a small neat Alto sound. The 12C that came with the alto does not give that
good alto sound. It produces a tenor like sound, but again you might want that.

The intonation is absolutely better on the SL-35 if you want the partials to line up better. The Bach does not line up the same but I've played that Baxh since 1982 so I've had plenty of time to learn the quirks. The price 2090 skr is incredible good value for the money.

/Tom
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Re: Thomann Alto

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imsevimse
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Re: Thomann Alto

Post by imsevimse »

I do not think that clip was one of his best, it is from 2014. We need go go back yet another 35 years when he was at his peak. As I said the good alto sound I like is the sound he had in late 70-ies early 80-ies. Unfortunately the record I'm thinking of is not found on youTube. I have it on LP.

Here is a clip where his playing is a lot better. It does not say alto but it definitely is, and it shows the sound I like.



If you consider to buy one of his records then the
"Branimir Slokar - Südwestdeutsches Kammerorchester Pforzheim" is the one I recommend. You find one here on LP:
https://images.app.goo.gl/2DMXqHYRAQeU37sW8
MrHCinDE
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Re: Thomann Alto

Post by MrHCinDE »

Obviously it‘s all a matter of personal taste but this is probably the alto trombone sound I enjoy listening to the most, mainly the player of course:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mDzSlH38OpM

Anyway, it‘ll be interesting to see hear you get on with with the Thomann trombone in an ensemble at some stage.
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Re: Thomann Alto

Post by harrisonreed »

imsevimse wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 12:17 pm
Here is a clip where his playing is a lot better. It does not say alto but it definitely is, and it shows the sound I like.


I didn't think that was the kind of playing you were talking about. The clip you gave is much better.

My two alto sounds I like are:

Dark



And bright



Notice that neither of these two guys are playing uncentered or out of the slot. The alto sound I can't get my head around is the "whah whah whah" sound that you hear (some of it comes across in the slokar clip I posted), even in some of the best players when they play alto. Like every note was played in the wrong position and then slowly is lipped into tune.

Anyways, I'd be curious to see a picture of this new alto of yours! Let us know if you record even a short clip on it so we can hear it.
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Re: Thomann Alto

Post by imsevimse »

Yes, there are a lot of different alto sounds. Christian is also one of my favourites. Everything he touches becames music. The other guy you referenced, Harrison definitely had a darker sound. I could not see who that was. Both great players with different good sounds and no one is out of focus. Peter Steiner then again gets that neat sound, that I fancy. I had not heard of him before either. There are a lot of good alto players now but Branimir Slokar was one of the very first alto soloist on record (at least over here), besides him it was Michel Biquet. It was those two we knew of in the late 70-ies and I just froze on the playing of Branimir Slokar. I did not feel any of that with his tenor playing though. I know there were some over here who had issues with his vibrato, but not me, it fitted on the alto. Branimir Slokar was the reason I bought my first alto and is the sound I hear inside my head when I play. It's not the same as what comes out the bell of course but it is what I strive for when I play and when I choose mouthpieces when my two altos are compared.

When I talked about alto-plaing that's out of focus I did not mean players with these skills here. Some get a small tenor sound that's sounds out of focus and my belief is they think an alto should sound like that.

Okey, now we have four different good alto sounds to pick from and one example of a live performance of a retired player that did not sound at his best. Actually it was real bad. If you get a chance to hear that other Slokar record I referenced then do that. That one is his best and if you want another one there is also a record where he plays songs of Mendelssohn. Those are two good examples of his early recorded alto playing.


/Tom
Last edited by imsevimse on Sat May 08, 2021 12:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
MrHCinDE
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Re: Thomann Alto

Post by MrHCinDE »

It isn't specifically about the alto sound but I really like the balance and sound on this recording. What about the overtones in the second movement!

imsevimse
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Re: Thomann Alto

Post by imsevimse »

It sounds good, but this we play on a tenor in the quartet I'm a part of. The alto sound here fits the section. It is a heavier sound but still a lot lighter compared to the others in the quartet and that makes balance good. The alto shines when they play loud. Personally I think the alto sound is close to what could be done with a smaller .500 tenor. I like the sound of the whole section, they balance well.

I wonder how that would sound if the sound on alto was lighter and the other tenors scaled down. I'm curious and I guess it's because I favour lighter sounds in general. The sound in pianissimo will shine more with smaller instruments and a lot of this should be played very softly. The full sound then consequently does not need to be quite this loud as to sparkle. Just interested what would happen.

/Tom
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Re: Thomann Alto

Post by stewbones43 »

During the recent lockdown I have taken the opportunity to do some much needed work on my alto trombone. As well as orchestral excerpts, I have been working on the Leopold Mozart Concerto for Alto Trombone. It was interesting to hear the Christian Lindberg version on Youtube posted by Harrison Reed above. I still have a long way to go!!!
But can anyone tell me where CL got the 3rd movement from? My version, the Alexander Weinmann edition, published by Edition Kunzelmann is a much more sedate minuet, with not a lot to play and, being a glutton for punishment, I wondered if CL's version was available anywhere.

Thanks

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Re: Thomann Alto

Post by timothy42b »

harrisonreed wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 4:19 pm Notice that neither of these two guys are playing uncentered or out of the slot. The alto sound I can't get my head around is the "whah whah whah" sound that you hear (some of it comes across in the slokar clip I posted), even in some of the best players when they play alto. Like every note was played in the wrong position and then slowly is lipped into tune.
I've tried to describe that effect, but yours is a much better description and I think more correct.

Over the years I've heard a number of skilled alto soloists at ETW/ATW and my impression was that there was something inherently limiting, like you could get a sweet mf at best, but could never push it further. I blamed the instrument.

But I think you're right, it is probably the narrowness of the slot, and the players missing it, rather than the horn itself. I've heard some good tenor players in my area play alto quite out of tune, compared to how they play their main axe, and I think if they lipped into tune it would sound like that.

I did hear John Kenny play alto amazingly loud, and he had none of those issues. Until him I didn't know an alto could be played like that.
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Re: Thomann Alto

Post by harrisonreed »

In the lindberg clip he is playing pretty damn loud. I think what it is is a combination of having a really good ear but also giving the instrument the respect it deserves. Some really good trombonists will just pop a mouthpiece in a good quality alto and think they suddenly can play it because they know the "positions".
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Re: Thomann Alto

Post by harrisonreed »

stewbones43 wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 9:45 am During the recent lockdown I have taken the opportunity to do some much needed work on my alto trombone. As well as orchestral excerpts, I have been working on the Leopold Mozart Concerto for Alto Trombone. It was interesting to hear the Christian Lindberg version on Youtube posted by Harrison Reed above. I still have a long way to go!!!
But can anyone tell me where CL got the 3rd movement from? My version, the Alexander Weinmann edition, published by Edition Kunzelmann is a much more sedate minuet, with not a lot to play and, being a glutton for punishment, I wondered if CL's version was available anywhere.

Thanks

Cheers

Stewbones 43
So, you can get it on his website, tarrodi.se . It's a different movement from a larger work by L Mozart, called "Divertimento in D". The trombone "concerto" is not really that, but three movements written for trombone (or viola) as a solo instrument within that large work, and your version contains the correct movements. The movement he substituted is from the same large work (9 movements if I remember correctly), but for a different solo instrument. The problem is that the trombone movements really only make sense within the larger context, and that one movement is pretty boring within a 3 movement version. Substitute out for a more exciting finale, rearrange the order, and you have a version that works a lot better.

My only beef is that he has never been up front about it, and in one masterclass he tried to criticize the edition a student was using as having "questionable scholarship", because it contained the original three movements as written for trombone. Just say what you did and why you did it, because honestly it works better as a concerto that way. He might have seen something in the original score that suggested the movements he chose are correct, but I don't think it would stand up. Both editions are equally dubious, as it was never intended to be performed as a concerto anyways.
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Re: Thomann Alto

Post by CalgaryTbone »

You can play the "origina"l 3 mvts. in a different order - 2, 3, 1 - and it works better as a stand alone piece too. That's what I did when I played it. Pretty sure that is what's on Toby Oft's solo recording too.

Jim Scott
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Re: Thomann Alto

Post by timothy42b »

harrisonreed wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 3:15 pm In the lindberg clip he is playing pretty damn loud. I think what it is is a combination of having a really good ear but also giving the instrument the respect it deserves. Some really good trombonists will just pop a mouthpiece in a good quality alto and think they suddenly can play it because they know the "positions".
I did my morning routine on a borrowed Selman alto before work today.

When I get set just right I can make it bark like a trumpet - to my ears anyway, I'll have to record it A-B with the pBone and see if it's really different or that's just bell feedback.

But when I listen really hard, it's not easy to start a tone completely cleanly with no waiting for the tone to stabilize. it takes listening hard to that first piece of tone past the articulation - is it really really steady? How can I make it better? Is it me (almost certainly) or partly the instrument (probably not, but on the other hand Benade talks about trumpets that stabilize slowly and are playable only by the very skilled).
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Re: Thomann Alto

Post by Kdanielsen »

I think some people struggle to play loud on alto because they are using a mouthpiece that doesn’t work for them AND the horn. They play a 4g on their big horn then pop a 12c in and are surprised they can’t play loud anymore (wrong rim for them). Then they try a 6.5 al and that doesn’t work either (not an ideal cup etc). It can be a real challenge to find something that works all around, but I think that’s the real key. FWIW that’s a DE xt105n b+ c alto s for me.
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Re: Thomann Alto

Post by timothy42b »

Kdanielsen wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 6:49 am I think some people struggle to play loud on alto because they are using a mouthpiece that doesn’t work for them AND the horn.
Hmm. I think you're onto something. If the mouthpiece and horn combination make it difficult to stabilize the pitch quickly, you would get exactly the results we see. That means the alto really is a little harder to play.
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Re: Thomann Alto

Post by Kdanielsen »

timothy42b wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 7:55 am
Kdanielsen wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 6:49 am I think some people struggle to play loud on alto because they are using a mouthpiece that doesn’t work for them AND the horn.
Hmm. I think you're onto something. If the mouthpiece and horn combination make it difficult to stabilize the pitch quickly, you would get exactly the results we see. That means the alto really is a little harder to play.
I also can’t figure out why more altos aren’t made in german proportions. I had a series of nice “american” type altos including a TIS Shires that just never felt right. I traded the Shires for a Thein Old German Style and presto, everything lines up and slots in a way that feels normal. The high Db is perfect in 1st, and the next few partials above that work much better too. I can’t for the life of me figure out why this isn’t the standard alto style. It’s so much easier. It feels like a trombone instead of a frustration.
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Re: Thomann Alto

Post by Matt K »

In my experience, the leadpipe is more important on alto than it is on tenor, and it's pretty darn important on tenor. Getting the receiver right can be hard. I tend to prefer Doug's "Alto" shanks myself, but mixed with a tenor pipe. On the Conn 36H I use to have, I used a Shires T85 "2" that was flared to the .491 bore. On the Wessex I have now, I use a Conn 52H pipe which I find works better than both the ones it came with. On those German horns, I'm curious about what the pipes would be, if there even was a corollary. The German horns I've tried, which is limited mostly to Thein bass trombones, play very, very broad and my guess is they have a pipe closer to Shires "3" if they are at all similar.

I haven't touched alto in awhile though and was in the process of figuring out since it's much larger than most altos if the "Alto" shank was best for me or if it was something maybe even closer to the 4. Its at the shop now but should be done over the summer... am looking forward to practicing on that... figuring out what works well. Fingers crossed! Looking forward to having a light horn like that that I might be able to use for things I'd typically use a small bore for.
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Re: Thomann Alto

Post by Kdanielsen »

Matt K wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 12:35 pm On those German horns, I'm curious about what the pipes would be, if there even was a corollary. The German horns I've tried, which is limited mostly to Thein bass trombones, play very, very broad and my guess is they have a pipe closer to Shires "3" if they are at all similar.
I don't know any specifics about the leadpipe that came with mine except its quite long. It's not the whole length of the slide tube, as is sometimes done to get a different bore, but it is about twice as long as normal. It's got some numbers and letters stamped on it but I don't know what they mean and can't find an explanation anywhere. The horn is a .508 with a small bell.

I'd say the horn sounds broad and narrow all at the same time. It's hard to describe. I like it.
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Re: Thomann Alto

Post by Matt K »

Kdanielsen wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 2:22 pm
I'd say the horn sounds broad and narrow all at the same time. It's hard to describe. I like it.
Just right!

Yeah that all makes sense. Long pipes tend to be very "centered". The one that came with my Wessex is ridiculous. It is intended as you described though, to make a different bore as far as I can tell. It's literally 100% the length of the slide.
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Re: Thomann Alto

Post by imsevimse »

MrHCinDE wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 2:24 am Nice write-up.

Is it the SL-35? I tried one in the Thomann showroom and thought it was very playable for the money.

The slide on the one I tried wasn‘t great so perhaps you got lucky with yours.

How do you like the sound, especially in comparison to your Bach 39? Personally I thought the one I tried was a little bit tinny and the ‚luxury’ model from Thomann (TEB 480) was more to my taste, still for the money the SL-35 was more than usable and with a bit of familiarisation and a different mouthpiece I may have been able to get a better sound out of it.
I got a TEB480 GL today. Now I have two cheap Thomann altos. The slide on this is also good. The tuningslide does not need to be pulled as far as possibe on this horn. Not the same as my SL-35. It also plays a little different. I do not know yet what I think of it. It is heavy and has a balanceweight. It's a red bell. Bore is .480. The SL-35 is .488. Sound us good and partials line up well on both horns. It can take both alto and tenor mouthpieces just as the SL-35. I wonder if those new cheap altos are targeted towards children. Here teachers have started to teach young kids on alto instead of tenor because children have short arms. With a tenor mouthpiece like a 11C or larger both these cheap altos sound very much like small bore tenors. Kids could play tenor parts more easy.

With these horns and larger mouthpieces I would absolutely experiment myself to see if I could use instead of a tenor sometimes, and I do not think many would acctually hear it is an alto. My Bach 39 work very well with my most shallow mouthpieces and the conclusion now is I would likely use this horn if I really want an alto with a small and (what I think) true alto sound in a professional situation - if that will ever happen again.

I would use one of the Thomann altos if I want a "darker" sound and a more secure high register. The higher register up to high Eb, F pops out much more secure on these horns compared to any small bore tenor I have. High notes is not easier to produce because they still need a good solid emboushure on any horn, but since partials are not as close on the alto compared the tenor they are more secure. I see I could use this in a community symphony orchestra if a part is very high. I could use it for a high tenor part in a trombone quartet too.

They say the TEB480 GL is an Alto of "classic design". I wonder what that means. It is even stamped 'classic" on the receiver. The price was 30% more compared to the SL-35. They say the SL-35 is a copy of the Kuhn & Hoyer "Slokar" model. The SL-35 sound is "lighter" compared to the TEB 480 GL even though the bore is larger.

The bells are the same size 7". I like both horns best with the Bach 12E mouthpiece I'm used. Intonation is good on both and about the same. The partials on my Bach 39 as I said earlier does not line up very well, but on both these cheap horns they do.

/Tom
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Re: Thomann Alto

Post by MrHCinDE »

Nice! What‘s the collective noun for several alto trombones?

A quiver of altos?
Maybe a bevy or a hive?

Let us know how you get with each of them in a group whenever you get the chance.
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Re: Thomann Alto

Post by imsevimse »

MrHCinDE wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 5:19 am Nice! What‘s the collective noun for several alto trombones?

A quiver of altos?
Maybe a bevy or a hive?

Let us know how you get with each of them in a group whenever you get the chance.
Yes, it's kind of crazy. You could call it a trombone-obsession.

I just bought them to know if Chinese made instruments are bad or good, and because I had the money.

I collect sounds, so my instruments are played and I'm a former professional player so I know what to look for. I can do this because I'm not working as a musician since 20 years. I'm a computer programmer now. If I was a musician I would not have neither the interest or the money to investigate like this.

I want to figure for myself rather than having people tell me what to think about Chinese instruments. Until know I have not had the guts to buy, but after I tried one cheap Chinese alto over here that blow me away I decided to se if they now have reached a point where they are worth buying.

It's interesting. It's still a gamble because you do not know what to expect really, and no serious shop have them in stock over here. You can not really try before you buy and that is a big drawback. Thomann has good support and that's what made the difference.

I've read a lot about how many let the Chinese manufacture their student lines. I've read about what happened to Shires. I've heard both Bach and Yamaha student line instruments are made in China, and Yamaha in particular still has the best reputation considering student instruments.

Are the Yamaha student line instruments really produced in China? I don't know if it is only a rumour.l, but I'm positive about my experience so far about these altos and just now I'm thinking of what to buy next.

/Tom
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Re: Thomann Alto

Post by stewbones43 »

I think the collective noun for a group of alto trombones is a Confusion of Alto Trombones; one alto trombone is difficult enough.

Tom, in your quest for altos, have you tried the John Packer/Rath JP 236. This is a carefully made Chinese instrument with good quality control and a good reputation. There are 2 John Packer stockists in Sweden and here is a link to their websites.
https://www.jpmusicalinstruments.com/stockists

Cheers

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Re: Thomann Alto

Post by imsevimse »

stewbones43 wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 8:20 am I think the collective noun for a group of alto trombones is a Confusion of Alto Trombones; one alto trombone is difficult enough.

Tom, in your quest for altos, have you tried the John Packer/Rath JP 236. This is a carefully made Chinese instrument with good quality control and a good reputation. There are 2 John Packer stockists in Sweden and here is a link to their websites.
https://www.jpmusicalinstruments.com/stockists

Cheers

Stewbones43
Interesting. I live very close to the largest city Stockholm. Uppsala is the fourth largest city and apparently there is a dealer there that sells John Packer instruments. I've been there once at "Selma-musik" to try a lot of Jurgen Voight instruments they had in the shop. It was about 20-25 tenors they had at an exhibition. I think they had plans on start selling them. At that time I was not a collector so I bought none. I have regret many times since I did not buy any, because they were awesome.

I might check with the owner and visit that shop again when this pandemic Is over. Thanks!

/Tom
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Re: Thomann Alto

Post by brtnats »

Tom,

Since most of us haven’t had the opportunity to compare those 3 horns, would you be willing to post your thoughts on all of them together?
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Re: Thomann Alto

Post by Fentone »

imsevimse wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 9:01 am
MrHCinDE wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 2:24 am
I got a TEB480 GL today. Now I have two cheap Thomann altos. The slide on this is also good. The tuningslide does not need to be pulled as far as possibe on this horn. Not the same as my SL-35. It also plays a little different. I do not know yet what I think of it.
Hi Tom. I wonder now you have had both Thomann altos for some time, which one you prefer or how they compare?

I took a punt and purchased a TEB480 S in silver plating. I have had it for 6 weeks now. It has it's quirks, but I really like it. In fact so much so that I have decided to focus on playing it exclusively for the time being. The sound is great and it resonates well. Crystal clear and solid. I'd say it's exceptional for a £255 horn. I'm very happy with it. I don't have another alto to compare it to. Just my 2nd hand tenors, but I've briefly played a Bach alto before.

The tuning and partials are very well in tune, with one big 'but'. Bizarrely, the bottom Eb and D are very sharp. So much so that a position 1 note fully in could be cheated as an E natural if played at speed (it's actually a quarter tone between an Eb and an E). So Eb and D have to be played very long. By the Db it has sorted itself out again. It is literally these two notes and only in that octave. Actually I tell a lie, there isn't really a seventh position on it, so bottom A and E above are both sharp without getting dangerously close to the slide falling off. But everywhere else the tuning is terrific and the horn centers well. It stays bright an in tune up top. It doesn't have a funny spots where it goes stuffy or vibrates funny.

The slide is OK. It's pretty much like every second hand horn I've bought off eBay. e.g. smooth until 6th approaching 7th position after which there is increasing resistance until it gets kind of 'stuck' just before it falls off. I guess this might also be why I'm playing 7th a bit short. I'm sure this is a minor alignment issue. It's fine for anywhere away from 7th. I guess it gives me a bit of 7th phobia just like my other horns.

Minor things. The tuning slide would be better a little stiffer. My ear pushes it in over time and I have to keep checking it's where it should be. It comes with a little rubber O ring to sit above the slide attachment screw ring to stop it riding up. At first this didn't give me confidence and the connection was a bit loose, but it's now firmed up nice and solid. The mouthpiece receiver has been finished a little tatty and rough, and the white soldering isn't the best, it's OK but a bit messy if you look at it very closely. The slide lock looks hand fashioned and crude, but it works well. The spit valve is strong with a strong spring. The sliver plating is good, beautiful and shiny and doesn't seem worn or thin in any places. The mouthpiece that comes with it isn't too bad. It seems to be a copy of a small Yamaha with quite a narrow throat. For me the mouthpieces that works best with are my two Olds 3 mouthpieces. They're both different to each other and have a shank very similar to the mouthpiece that comes with the horn. Overall the horn is very solid, heavy with thick metal. It doesn't ding easy and inspires confidence when you pick it up.
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Re: Thomann Alto

Post by harrisonreed »

Tuning side out all the way, but bell in 4th? Hmmm

Are you sure it is not like the Conn altos or the other slokar copies that play best with the tuning slide all the way in?

I've heard of altos with the bell in 4th, but that shouldn't require the tuning slide to be pulled an the way out.

(I see that this is a resurrected necropost, but it seems people have altos on the mind today)
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Re: Thomann Alto

Post by brtnats »

harrisonreed wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 10:36 am Tuning side out all the way, but bell in 4th? Hmmm

Are you sure it is not like the Conn altos or the other slokar copies that play best with the tuning slide all the way in?

I've heard of altos with the bell in 4th, but that shouldn't require the tuning slide to be pulled an the way out.

(I see that this is a resurrected necropost, but it seems people have altos on the mind today)
I’ve got one in yellow brass. I play with the slide about a half centimeter out using 7C-ish sizes. Bell doesn’t quite line up in 4th for me and I have 7 positions (7th right on the end).

I like it.
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Re: Thomann Alto

Post by heinzgries »

Fentone wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 8:11 am
The tuning and partials are very well in tune, with one big 'but'. Bizarrely, the bottom Eb and D are very sharp. So much so that a position 1 note fully in could be cheated as an E natural if played at speed (it's actually a quarter tone between an Eb and an E). So Eb and D have to be played very long.
when you put the tuninig slide all the way in, is it possible to reach a bottom E on 1. position or how far away?
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Re: Thomann Alto

Post by Fentone »


when you put the tuninig slide all the way in, is it possible to reach a bottom E on 1. position or how far away?
It is indeed quite easily possible to reach bottom E with tuning slide in, by lipping it up a bit. Centered, it sits at about an E with 10 cents flat.
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Re: Thomann Alto

Post by imsevimse »

harrisonreed wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 10:36 am Tuning side out all the way, but bell in 4th? Hmmm

Are you sure it is not like the Conn altos or the other slokar copies that play best with the tuning slide all the way in?

I've heard of altos with the bell in 4th, but that shouldn't require the tuning slide to be pulled an the way out.

(I see that this is a resurrected necropost, but it seems people have altos on the mind today)
Yes. You made me pick out the Tomann altos to check this again. With a Bach 12E the tuningslide on the SL-35 is far out, near the end and the C on 4th :alto: :line3: is right at the bell. With a Bach 12C MT Vernon or my Yamaha Nils Langren mouthpiece tuningslide it is out only a centimeter.

I checked both alto's and the TEB480 GL has the tuningslide pushed in all the way with a Bach 12 C MT Vernon and out one cm with a Bach 12E. Both altos are as good as I remembered and certainly considering the price they are price worthy. I could not find my Bach 39, but I know it is here somewhere.

If I compare these two the TEB480 GL is more heavy and plays darker. The SL-35 is not as heavy and also plays lighter. Both have notes lined up better than what I'm used to, coming from my Bach 39.

Any questions since I now have them side by side on the table?

/Tom
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Re: Thomann Alto

Post by harrisonreed »

Oh interesting, they look like they are each based on a different alto, too. They look great.

The length of the tuning slide doesn't seem to be long enough to change a 4th position that is where you would expect and put it at the bell, but I didn't realize that the different mouthpieces you used made such a difference either. I also play long on the slide and never tune my Eb to be close to where most people think 1st position is either. Thanks Tom!
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Re: Thomann Alto

Post by Fentone »


Any questions since I now have them side by side on the table?

/Tom
Tom, is the bottom Eb on your TEB480 sharp in closed 1st position, like on mine? And is 7th position a little sharp before running out of length too?
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Re: Thomann Alto

Post by imsevimse »

Fentone wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 8:11 am
imsevimse wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 9:01 am

I got a TEB480 GL today. Now I have two cheap Thomann altos. The slide on this is also good. The tuningslide does not need to be pulled as far as possibe on this horn. Not the same as my SL-35. It also plays a little different. I do not know yet what I think of it.
Hi Tom. I wonder now you have had both Thomann altos for some time, which one you prefer or how they compare?

I took a punt and purchased a TEB480 S in silver plating. I have had it for 6 weeks now. It has it's quirks, but I really like it. In fact so much so that I have decided to focus on playing it exclusively for the time being. The sound is great and it resonates well. Crystal clear and solid. I'd say it's exceptional for a £255 horn. I'm very happy with it. I don't have another alto to compare it to. Just my 2nd hand tenors, but I've briefly played a Bach alto before.

The tuning and partials are very well in tune, with one big 'but'. Bizarrely, the bottom Eb and D are very sharp. So much so that a position 1 note fully in could be cheated as an E natural if played at speed (it's actually a quarter tone between an Eb and an E). So Eb and D have to be played very long. By the Db it has sorted itself out again. It is literally these two notes and only in that octave. Actually I tell a lie, there isn't really a seventh position on it, so bottom A and E above are both sharp without getting dangerously close to the slide falling off. But everywhere else the tuning is terrific and the horn centers well. It stays bright an in tune up top. It doesn't have a funny spots where it goes stuffy or vibrates funny.

The slide is OK. It's pretty much like every second hand horn I've bought off eBay. e.g. smooth until 6th approaching 7th position after which there is increasing resistance until it gets kind of 'stuck' just before it falls off. I guess this might also be why I'm playing 7th a bit short. I'm sure this is a minor alignment issue. It's fine for anywhere away from 7th. I guess it gives me a bit of 7th phobia just like my other horns.

Minor things. The tuning slide would be better a little stiffer. My ear pushes it in over time and I have to keep checking it's where it should be.
Nice to hear you are happy with your TEB480 S. The problems you have with the low register beeing sharp is not with my horn and I have not the problem with the tuningslide either. I have to be careful with 7:th position too it is where the slide falls off and to get there fast is an adventure. I've done a little playing with minus one record and played some of my regular rep. It is in bass clef which is not a problem for me since I learned alto clef like a c instrument (non transposing). I don't know if that could be understood but bass clef just works for me on alto and so does tenor clef. There are a lot of low notes in the tenor repertoire so I have to play the E on 7:th quite often. I even had to fake a low G on 5:th as a factitious note and that did work. For next minus one session I will pick out things that are a little higher in register.
Fentone wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 4:55 pm

Any questions since I now have them side by side on the table?

/Tom
Tom, is the bottom Eb on your TEB480 sharp in closed 1st position, like on mine? And is 7th position a little sharp before running out of length too?
No, Eb and D are not sharp, but 7th position is on the sharp side if you compare to a tenor. The 7:th pos is where it falls off. When I have to go there fast I think I need to do some lipping because the risk of having it fall off. To start on a E or low A and be in tune is not a problem on 7:th.

Have you tried different mouthpieces with the horn to see if that solves the strange intonation issues your are having?

A tip for the seventh position: I push the slide up slight when I reach the end and learn to interpret that angle of the slide that becomes just before the slide falls off at the very end. This increases my control over the slide and helps to find that end when I need to get there fast and also solves the problem with the resistens in the slide just at the end

I will see if I might play all my three Altos on the same piece and sum my thoughts later

/Tom
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Re: Thomann Alto

Post by heinzgries »

Fentone wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 12:21 pm

when you put the tuninig slide all the way in, is it possible to reach a bottom E on 1. position or how far away?
It is indeed quite easily possible to reach bottom E with tuning slide in, by lipping it up a bit. Centered, it sits at about an E with 10 cents flat.
with which mouthpiece have you reach this result?
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Re: Thomann Alto

Post by Fentone »

Thanks for the advice. I know exactly what you mean about bass clef, I learned it in C too and I am happy with either bass or treble clef, having played trumpet for 30 years prior to starting trombone. I started transcribing a jazz solo to alto clef the other day for the sake of learning alto, and discovering it was basically just treble clef a tone lower I decided to stick with treble and bass for the time being.

I have been playing along to some drones today and decided that I have been playing with the tuning slide pushed a little too far in. I had been cheating a little bit for those sweet sweet slightly sharp and easy upper register notes. A bit of extra length helps with that bottom Eb and the sharp 7th. To be honest, I don't have any fear of the slide falling off as the alignment gets nasty at 7th position so it gets stuck like a brick. Having said all that, the bottom Eb still is a little sharp and I have still have to play it slightly long, and it is never a perfect octave with the Eb above.

I had wondered if the tuning was a shank issue or an Olds mouthpiece thing, but I have tried it with all my small shank mouthpieces and it's the same on all of them. Those would be two very small Olds 3 , a Denis wick 12cs, a Yamaha 48 and the Chinese thing that came with the horn stamped 12C.

Edit: just tried it again and the discrepancy between the two first position Eb octaves is the same, whatever the state of the tuning slide. So it needs the same 'longing' of the position. And if anything it's even more pronounced with the Denis Wick 12cs.
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Re: Thomann Alto

Post by imsevimse »

Fentone wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 7:28 am ...
the bottom Eb still is a little sharp and I have still have to play it slightly long, and it is never a perfect octave with the Eb above.

I had wondered if the tuning was a shank issue or an Olds mouthpiece thing, but I have tried it with all my small shank mouthpieces and it's the same on all of them. Those would be two very small Olds 3 , a Denis wick 12cs, a Yamaha 48 and the Chinese thing that came with the horn stamped 12C.

Edit: just tried it again and the discrepancy between the two first position Eb octaves is the same, whatever the state of the tuning slide. So it needs the same 'longing' of the position. And if anything it's even more pronounced with the Denis Wick 12cs.
I checked this again and I noticed the Eb on first can be bent real sharp if I want to. It is more easy to bend pitches on that harmonic compared to the corresponding Bb on a Bb tenor that only allow a tiny bend and just sound pinched if bent sharp but if I play high Eb-Bb and the low Eb with my best sound on the alto then that is no problem on first position. I can also play the pedal Eb intune as well as the highest Eb in tune. Can you lip that Eb in tune?

/Tom
Last edited by imsevimse on Wed Jul 06, 2022 10:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Thomann Alto

Post by heinzgries »

Fentone wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 8:11 am
The tuning and partials are very well in tune, with one big 'but'. Bizarrely, the bottom Eb and D are very sharp. So much so that a position 1 note fully in could be cheated as an E natural if played at speed (it's actually a quarter tone between an Eb and an E). So Eb and D have to be played very long. By the Db it has sorted itself out again. It is literally these two notes and only in that octave
If the only extrem sharp tones are the bottom Eb and D my thought is, when it is possible to tune the sharp 1. position to bottom E (perhaps shortened tuningslide), you have the Eb on 2. the D on 3. but the Db then only on 3,5 position (sorted itself out) ? And the line above must then be the Bb on only 1,5 position So you have an alto
with a bottom line tune in E, but the lines above tune between E an Eb. In this way you dont need a 7 th position,
only a 6,5 position for the F and you can play E at 1. position.
Hope its possible to unterstand what i try to explain with my bad english
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Re: Thomann Alto

Post by heinzgries »

i have try to make a diagram
Image
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Re: Thomann Alto

Post by imsevimse »

heinzgries wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 3:11 pm i have try to make a diagram
Image
On my alto the low Eb, D and so on can be lipped up really easy so I wonder if that could be done on this particular piece too. In that case if the horn is tuned more sharp to get the Bb on closed first it may be possible to lip the Eb on first in tune and have the E on 7:th. On my horn the E is located just where it falls off. I think it will be difficult to play rapid passages between Eb and E on my horn but again this is an alto and it might not be a ton of such writing.

/Tom
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Re: Thomann Alto

Post by imsevimse »

brtnats wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 6:32 am Tom,

Since most of us haven’t had the opportunity to compare those 3 horns, would you be willing to post your thoughts on all of them together?
This is going to be tough. I practiced my three altos today and played the same repertoire on all of them. I switched between my Bach 12E and my 12C MT Vernon mouthpieces.

Note: I don't play with long positions when I play alto like I do when I play tenor. Reason is the slide isn't long enough and 7:th position is at the very end of the slide already. If first position would be a couple of cm out then there would not be a 7:th position on any of these altos when I play so first position on the alto is right at the bumper for me. Reasons to play long positions on a small tenor is 1) to be able to do slide vibrato in first position and 2) beeing able to play the high D on first which is a note that usually is too flat for use on first in most tenors, that is if you play a Bb at the bumper..

In order lighter to darker (sound)

The Bach 39
has a very light and lush sound. It has a 7:th position just where the slide falls of. Does accept the Bach 12C or 11C if the tuning slide is pushed all in but I think the horn becomes a little dull compared to if played with a Bach 15E or 12E . The Bach 12E is for me the best match. I've also tried the horn with a Yamaha 48A, Bach 11C and Bach 11C "Artisan" today. With all these I have to play with the tuningslide in a closed position. I think this will be a problem if I have to play A=442. This is only the case with the larger C mouthpieces. I also remember this has been a problem for me in the past when I played the trombone in orchestra situations. When it comes to the intonation quirks I've got used to them. I'll try to explain the quirks since it is a little different from the others. The first three notes on the 4:th partial are really sharp, so the G on first, the F# on 2:nd and the F on 3:rd needs to be lowered a lot. The F on 3rd is where the bell is. The C is a couple of cm passed the bell but that's about where it is on the others. I think from 4:th position notes are at about the same distance as on the SL-35 if you got those positions in your arm, just don't look at the bell. The E above is just little shorter than the C and this is also like the others. The high Ab is at the bell at about the same spot as the F. A is in between Ab and high Bb. The pedal Eb, Eb, Bb, Eb and high Eb on first are close to the bumper but the high Bb needs to be slightly lowered. High C is a sharp position. Here the quirks ends (what I think) I have no problem to play this horn since I've had it for about 40 years.

The SL-35
has a light character. Intonation is very good. All notes line up well on all positions. It has a 7:th position just where the slide falls off. It accepts both my mouthpieces but I have to push in about 1 cm when I use the Bach 12C and with a Bach 12E it is far out. Sound is good. The G is on the first position and not very sharp. The F# on 2nd and F on 3rd are a lot shorter positions compared to the Bach. The C is at the bell but then the bell is further out compared to the Bach. The E above C needs to be raised just a tad just like the Bach. The Ab is where F is which is a shorter position compared to the Bach. The pedal Eb, Eb, Bb, Eb, Bb and high Eb are close to the bumper on first

The TEB480 GL 
This is a heavy horn and intonation is about the same as the SL-35. I think positions line up the same. This horn gives a beefier sound especially with the Bach 12C. This horn is probably the one to use if I would like to blend with large bore .547 horns.

All these horns are good. The Thomanns are probably most worthy their price. They didn't cost much but play really well. The Bach would be my go to horn at a church concert with a symphony orchestra because it is really easy to play soft and keep the light colors in the sound..

Update: 10/7 2022
I have now compared the three horns for a couple of days and I think I'm ready to recommend what I think is the best horn after all. If I consider both sound, price and what is easiest to learn. Okay, here it comes. The best horn is the SL-35. I know this may seem strange because I've said the Bach 39 is the one I prefer, but considering the cheap price and the flexibility to accept ALL sizes of mouthpieces from a Bach 11C to a Bach 15E as well as beeing able to tune A=442 with all mouthpieces it has to be the one to recommend, and the slide on this particular SL-35 is like glass, absolutely a 10/10. It has to be my recommendation with no doubt. What horn would I choose on next church gig? Answer: the Bach 39.


/Tom
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Re: Thomann Alto

Post by Fentone »

Heinzgries thank you for the suggestion, I understand it. I had thought of this, but found the E in first too sharp, but I hadn't thought of pushing the tuning slide in the changing where the positions are. I will give it a try, but I suspect I might mess up the tuning up top, but I am happy to give it a fair trial.

Tom, thanks for the detailed breakdown of the horns. I think if I'd read this first I may have opted to purchase the SL-35 but as I'm only going to be using the horn for jazz, I think I'm quite glad I went for the TEB480 S where the darker more tenory sound is what I'm chasing anyway.
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Re: Thomann Alto

Post by Posaunus »

imsevimse wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 6:41 pm ... being able to play the high D on first which is a note that usually is too flat for use on first in most tenors, that is if you play a Bb at the bumper..
Not if you have bumper springs! :idea:
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