Weird bell materials?

[syruplol]

Hey all! I'm not too experienced with the correlations between bell materials and acoustic characteristics but I had a few questions in mind from a recent experience.

When I was choosing my trombone a long while ago, my director suggested that I try a few horns with gold or red brass embellishments (bell or otherwise) because I play with a "naturally bright" tone. I don't know if it had any significant impact on my sound in front of the bell since I didn't have the sense to record anything while auditioning the horns, but I know that I preferred the gold brass when I was playing with the blindfold on because I could hear the feedback better than this sort of ringing that I got from the yellow brass.

Now that I've matured more as a player, I am beginning to think about what significance bell material really holds. I sent my horn into the shop earlier this year because someone had bumped into my stand in class and dented the slide. While my baby was being repaired, I borrowed a Bach 42 from my school and I felt that sound darker (fatter?) than on my own horn. It was odd playing into the resistance of the valve compared to the axial flow, but my friends seem to agree that I sound darker on the yellow brass instrument. I searched online and found one or two comments that suggested this might be since the man behind the S.E. Shires brand played on Conn instruments which came with thinner rose brass bells, but I don't know if this is true or not.

My personal story aside, I was just thinking about what material really had to do with sonic brilliance vs dullness. The common consensus seems to be that in terms of bright to dark it goes from Nickel Silver, Yellow Brass, Gold Brass, Red Brass, Copper, and then Silver. I had this thought that maybe steel would have interesting properties since it is already used for mouthpieces (Gidding and Kelly come to mind).

Has anyone ever experimented outside of the standard-ish set of materials for instrument making? If so, was the limiting factor that it was difficult to work the material or did it just sound subpar? Mainly, I wanted to know if hardened carbon steel would be a viable metal to make an instrument out of because it would be able to be made much thinner than brass.

Right now I play on my S.E. Shires Q30GA with Leadpipe 1 and an S.E. Shires 5MD.

[BGuttman]

In addition to material, the thickness of the bell affects "darkness". A thick yellow brass bell can be darker than a thin gold brass bell.

You won't see many steel bells because they would be very hard to make (due to the hardness of steel). We do have molded plastic instruments and carbon fiber reinforced bells. Generally the plastic instruments do not compare favorably to brass ones. The carbon fiber reinforced instruments seem to have good playing properties and are MUCH lighter than metal.

Reynold Schilke did an experiment with many bell materials including lead (probably as soft as you can get) and concrete (!). I don't have the results of his study, but it has been alluded to here many times.

[syruplol]

https://www.everythingtrumpet.com/schil ... linic.html

I've found the study that you mentioned. It was very interesting to read that Mr. Schilke discovered that when the bell itself is very hard, the sound is dead since the bell adds its own resonances to the tone produced by the player. I was also interested to read that soft materials have the opposite effect - being brilliant to the point of shrillness. Unless I missed it though, it does not mention that Mr. Schilke tested a concrete bell, though I think it would be very difficult to craft a bell from concrete.

[timothy42b]

I am not sure that the Schilke experiments were real - it may have been thought experiments in an attempt to distill some of his experiences. Certainly some of the anecdotes make no sense.

The bottom line with materials, as far as i can tell, is that horns differ so much from brand to brand, and from horn to horn within brand, that you are never going to be able to come up with a consistent prediction on what effect the material used will have. You just have to play them - knowing (well, for most people not knowing) how much they themselves differ from time to time.

[hyperbolica]

The sound comes primarily from the shape of the air column, which includes mouthpiece and leadpipe. Vibration of the horn itself also contributes, but not as much.

Material, density/weight, and stiffness/hardness as well as manufacturing issues combine to influence the main sound from the air column.

Bell material on its own is a small influence. I would argue bell heat treat / work hardening has at least as much influence.

Bells of one material are often offset by other components of contrasting materials. It's better to consider the horn (or modular component) as a whole rather than thinking about individual materials.

[harrisonreed]

It's all relative. For example, the bell throat, thickness, one piece vs two, and soldered/unsoldered bead have a bigger effect on the response and sound than the brass.

[robcat2075]

Most of the common knowledge about bell materials is anecdotal and unsupported by rigorous evidence.

I'm reminded of a study of flutes that were identical except for material... gold, silver, nickel... neither players nor listeners could reliably identify them in blind tests.

[Burgerbob]

It's all relative. For example, the bell throat, thickness, one piece vs two, and soldered/unsoldered bead have a bigger effect on the response and sound than the brass.

Yup. And most of that is the feedback, not even the sound on the other side.

[jthomas105]

I see you are a senior in southeast Texas. What are you plans after graduation from HS.

[syruplol]

I see you are a senior in southeast Texas. What are you plans after graduation from HS.

I plan to major in Biochemistry in college, but I haven't heard any word from any institutions that I've applied to yet. I want to do drum corps but I am unsure about preparing the audition materials for that because I am working away at my etudes for phase 2 of All-Region. However, I do know that I want to continue playing trombone for the foreseeable future.

[Kbiggs]

If you’re going to college/university in the fall, and given that you want to continue studying trombone (even though you don’t plan to major in music), you might consider postponing the decision to buy a new horn. Some trombone profs/instructors have preferences, likes, and dis-likes for equipment. Starting off on the wrong foot, i.e., playing a trombone brand that the instructor doesn’t like, is no way to begin studying with a teacher. Other teachers have little to no preference, and are willing to work with students no matter the equipment. Know before you go.

Re: bell materials and tone quality, like many of the posts above say, instrument materials affect the player’s feedback more than the sound produced. Having said that, if the equipment gives you feedback that you don’t know how to interpret, it can be difficult to play the instrument regardless of quality of make and manufacture. Some people prefer Conns, Bachs, Kings, Edwards, Shires, etc., based on that.

You mention that you sound “darker” with 42, which I assume is a yellow brass bell. If the “darker” sound is more characteristic of a good classical trombone sound, then that’s your answer. If you have a “bright” sound naturally, then maybe using equipment that tends to provide “darker” feedback will help.

The Shires Q series are very good instruments. You can get a yellow, gold, or red brass bell to try, which will be a more economical solution. You might also try using the #2 leadpipe in the horn. That will be the least expensive option to try.

[syruplol]

If you’re going to college/university in the fall, and given that you want to continue studying trombone (even though you don’t plan to major in music), you might consider postponing the decision to buy a new horn. Some trombone profs/instructors have preferences, likes, and dis-likes for equipment. Starting off on the wrong foot, i.e., playing a trombone brand that the instructor doesn’t like, is no way to begin studying with a teacher. Other teachers have little to no preference, and are willing to work with students no matter the equipment. Know before you go.

Re: bell materials and tone quality, like many of the posts above say, instrument materials affect the player’s feedback more than the sound produced. Having said that, if the equipment gives you feedback that you don’t know how to interpret, it can be difficult to play the instrument regardless of quality of make and manufacture. Some people prefer Conns, Bachs, Kings, Edwards, Shires, etc., based on that.

You mention that you sound “darker” with 42, which I assume is a yellow brass bell. If the “darker” sound is more characteristic of a good classical trombone sound, then that’s your answer. If you have a “bright” sound naturally, then maybe using equipment that tends to provide “darker” feedback will help.

The Shires Q series are very good instruments. You can get a yellow, gold, or red brass bell to try, which will be a more economical solution. You might also try using the #2 leadpipe in the horn. That will be the least expensive option to try.

We just had a full band rehearsal last night, so I had the opportunity to have a couple of my friends in the trumpet section take a listen between the two instruments with their backs turned before rehearsal started.

Our principal trumpet said "I can tell it's you playing, but the first one [the 42, which has a yellow brass bell] sounds like you are working harder to articulate clearly and that your tone colour doesn't really change. When you played for the second time [on my own Q30], you were more expressive with tone colouring and putting a little more behind the forte and pulling back further on the piano."

I played the etude from page 21 of the Voxman "Selected Studies" book published by Rubank/Hal Leonard. It's etude 1 from the TMEA Tenor Trombone packet. I think that if I were to practice more using the school's horn (which I won't because the slide has a horrendous smell even after cleaning it with plenty of soap and a snake), I could sound similar or better than what I do right now. I'm going to chalk up the difference in performance to just being more familiar with how my own instrument feels rather than the composition or craftsmanship of the instrument on my face.

I did notice what you said about feedback though. Even though in front, where the trumpet player was sitting, the yellow brass was "darker," behind the bell, I felt like I was playing with a darker tone quality on my Shires Q. After my audition for All-Region Band passes by this Saturday, I might consider taking recordings to make a comparison between the sounds and great classical players like Joseph Alessi and Toby Oft. I just don't currently have the time to get adjusted to new equipment if my ideal setup is different from what I'm playing right now.

I don't plan on changing anything really with my setup though, since I am very comfortable with what I use right now - maybe a mouthpiece but if anything were to be true about equipment, it's that I should put more hours into practice to see if it's me first. My post was more about a thought which surfaced when I purchased my horn back when I was in middle school and my director was helping me pick from the massive assortment available to choose from.

I appreciate the heads up about picky teachers! I had no idea that some of them could be so discerning with the horns their students use.

[jthomas105]

Friendly FYI from a retired Texas band director and a dad - Check out Tyler Jr. College since you have not yet received any acceptance letters from the schools you have applied to. My daughter is finishing her 2nd year there and will graduate with an Associates in Applied Science to go on to nursing school. She has been in the marching band and the 2nd concert band (she is good enough to be in the wind ensemble but did not want to devote that much time to extra practice). Every student in the marching band and then one of the concert bands in the spring receives some kind of scholarship, even non-music majors. Most of the scholarships are tuition waivers. For students like my daughter that already had her tuition waived for other reasons she was awarded a scholarship that helped with her room and board.
The trombone teacher (and department head) there is Dr. Heather Mensch and she has a wonderful studio of trombone students.
Here is a link to this years marching band show:
The TJC wind ensemble will also be the first jr. college band to perform as one of the invited college band at TMEA this coming February.
When I had a private lesson studio at 3 schools in the DFW area before Covid I would talk with my jr. and sr. students (many of them needed financial help) to consider TJC because they can go there cheaper and then transfer to a 4 year school. TJC is not your typical jr. college, it has an enrollment of around 12,000 students. Remember the degree you get from your 4 year school and put in a frame says you graduated from that institution, it doesn't say two years at jr college and two years at UT, A&M, Baylor, SMU, UofH, Texas Tech, etc.. Your transcripts will tell where you went but people really only care about the final degree.

[Molefsky]

I was speaking with a mute designer a couple of years ago and he commented that one of the issue with lightweight spun aluminum was that, especially in larger mutes, they tended to vibrate a bit too much with the air column and this resulted in them distorting the sound/pitch rather than reflecting it. I wonder if bell material can play some role in this as well. I second Bob's point about some of these differences being more in the feedback than the sound out in front of the bell. I wouldn't discount the importance of those differences btw.

[MoominDave]

If you’re going to college/university in the fall, and given that you want to continue studying trombone (even though you don’t plan to major in music), you might consider postponing the decision to buy a new horn. Some trombone profs/instructors have preferences, likes, and dis-likes for equipment. Starting off on the wrong foot, i.e., playing a trombone brand that the instructor doesn’t like, is no way to begin studying with a teacher. Other teachers have little to no preference, and are willing to work with students no matter the equipment. Know before you go.

Re: bell materials and tone quality, like many of the posts above say, instrument materials affect the player’s feedback more than the sound produced. Having said that, if the equipment gives you feedback that you don’t know how to interpret, it can be difficult to play the instrument regardless of quality of make and manufacture. Some people prefer Conns, Bachs, Kings, Edwards, Shires, etc., based on that.

You mention that you sound “darker” with 42, which I assume is a yellow brass bell. If the “darker” sound is more characteristic of a good classical trombone sound, then that’s your answer. If you have a “bright” sound naturally, then maybe using equipment that tends to provide “darker” feedback will help.

The Shires Q series are very good instruments. You can get a yellow, gold, or red brass bell to try, which will be a more economical solution. You might also try using the #2 leadpipe in the horn. That will be the least expensive option to try.

We just had a full band rehearsal last night, so I had the opportunity to have a couple of my friends in the trumpet section take a listen between the two instruments with their backs turned before rehearsal started.

Our principal trumpet said "I can tell it's you playing, but the first one [the 42, which has a yellow brass bell] sounds like you are working harder to articulate clearly and that your tone colour doesn't really change. When you played for the second time [on my own Q30], you were more expressive with tone colouring and putting a little more behind the forte and pulling back further on the piano."

I played the etude from page 21 of the Voxman "Selected Studies" book published by Rubank/Hal Leonard. It's etude 1 from the TMEA Tenor Trombone packet. I think that if I were to practice more using the school's horn (which I won't because the slide has a horrendous smell even after cleaning it with plenty of soap and a snake), I could sound similar or better than what I do right now. I'm going to chalk up the difference in performance to just being more familiar with how my own instrument feels rather than the composition or craftsmanship of the instrument on my face.

I did notice what you said about feedback though. Even though in front, where the trumpet player was sitting, the yellow brass was "darker," behind the bell, I felt like I was playing with a darker tone quality on my Shires Q. After my audition for All-Region Band passes by this Saturday, I might consider taking recordings to make a comparison between the sounds and great classical players like Joseph Alessi and Toby Oft. I just don't currently have the time to get adjusted to new equipment if my ideal setup is different from what I'm playing right now.

I don't plan on changing anything really with my setup though, since I am very comfortable with what I use right now - maybe a mouthpiece but if anything were to be true about equipment, it's that I should put more hours into practice to see if it's me first. My post was more about a thought which surfaced when I purchased my horn back when I was in middle school and my director was helping me pick from the massive assortment available to choose from.

I appreciate the heads up about picky teachers! I had no idea that some of them could be so discerning with the horns their students use.

Be cautious about attributing system effects to causes that you haven't isolated. You played your Shires Q for people, you played your Bach 42. They sounded different in the sound detail - no surprise for two completely different makes of trombone. But why did they sound different? I assume you used the same mouthpiece... But then there's the leadpipe, followed by the slide bore(s), the slide bow, the valve bore and type, etc. All of these internal measurements have a direct interaction on the wave you produce. The material that the trombone is made of? At strongest only an indirect physical coupling and a presence in the personal sound feedback loop via some vibrations transmitting through the side of the bell next to the ear.

In general, if you want to investigate the effect of changing a component, you need to only change that component. If you want to investigate the effect of changing bell material, you need a trombone with a detachable bell section and two physically identical bells of differing materials, otherwise the comparison will be confounded by other variables from the start.
Will your Shires slide go into your Bach bell? Give it a try and repeat the comparison with the same listeners with Bach/Bach and Shires/Bach halves. I bet they hear significant differences.

A general observation about this subject, which is often a rather vexed topic of discussion... Material effects are at biggest small compared to bore effects, and bore effects are small compared to human technique flexibility. A second general observation: It tends to be that the further you get from the face in the tube, the less a component matters. It's really subtle stuff, to the extent that there is argument over whether material effects are humanly detectable at all, or are maybe all in the mind.

[OneTon]

Does anyone remember a Taylor trombone bell from 30 or 40 years ago? I seem to remember trying one that had large bore Bach fittings and was very heavy. But I can’t place what material it was.

[bbocaner]

Does anyone remember a Taylor trombone bell from 30 or 40 years ago? I seem to remember trying one that had large bore Bach fittings and was very heavy. But I can’t place what material it was.

I remember playing a Taylor bell with a Thayer valve at ITF about 25 years ago that was incredibly heavy and unlacquered yellow brass.

[OneTon]

Does anyone remember a Taylor trombone bell from 30 or 40 years ago? I seem to remember trying one that had large bore Bach fittings and was very heavy. But I can’t place what material it was.

I remember playing a Taylor bell with a Thayer valve at ITF about 25 years ago that was incredibly heavy and unlacquered yellow brass.

That was it. I did not buy one.

[TromboneMonkey]

I've played a Taylor bell that was made to fit Bach small bore slides. It was okay but I wasn't trying to snatch it up.

I have an Olds Studio right now that plays spectacularly; it has a yellow bell stem and a nickel bell flare. I wouldn't have picked it out had I known that, but I played it and it played great.

Everything has to work as a unit, including the bell material. Some of the really cool designs work because someone took the time to experimentally try out different materials and tinker with combinations until something desirable happened. It's not particularly clinical, as much as we all wish it was.