How would you interpret this?

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glenp
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How would you interpret this?

Post by glenp »

I've been playing a K&H Bart van Lier .500 bore horn since February. Last week I found a new (demo model) King 3B Legend at a steal of a price. I loved it in the store, so I decided to pick it up to try out.

There are lots of subtle differences between them, but there's only one that concerns me. Large interval jumps into the upper register on the King are much less reliable than on the K&H. For example, an octave interval from G in the staff to high G. For context, my comfortable range is up to high C in the treble staff.

The first time trying the interval on the King, there's more than a %50 chance I will under or overshoot the interval, but if I try it again it comes out fine. I get more consistent with the jumps toward the end of a practice session. Another thing that makes the interval jumps more consistent is to switch to a mouthpiece with a wider diameter. For example going from a 7C to a 6 1/2 AL.

I'm wondering how you all would interpret this? Would it influence your decision to keep the King?

Thanks for any thoughts you share!
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BGuttman
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Re: How would you interpret this?

Post by BGuttman »

The King probably has less of a "slot" than the K&H. This can be a blessing or a curse, depending on what you are trying to do. A strong slot means you can't "fudge" a tone as easily, but makes lip trills easier.

You can get the leaps to be more reliable with some interval practice. The Arban exercises for this are good for training you to not rely on the horn to finish the leap for you.

As you compare the horns side by side you will probably find some things the K&H does better and some things the King does better. Which to keep? Depends on which of the advantages you like best or which of the disadvantages you can learn to live with.
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glenp
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Re: How would you interpret this?

Post by glenp »

BGuttman wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 9:26 am The King probably has less of a "slot" than the K&H. This can be a blessing or a curse, depending on what you are trying to do. A strong slot means you can't "fudge" a tone as easily, but makes lip trills easier.
You might be right about that. But it feels like the king has more defined slots than the K&H. When trilling, the King feels like it's popping or bouncing a bit more between the two partials. I should have mentioned that in my first post.

That aside, it sounds like you wouldn't interpret this negatively against the King.

Thanks Bruce; I appreciate you sharing your insights!
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Re: How would you interpret this?

Post by timothy42b »

Just another thought, might apply, might not.

Part of hitting jumps accurately is hearing the note accurately in your mind.

Part of doing that is recalling the note in context - in the context of the total set of stimuli you applied during the thosands of times you've played that note. That set includes to some extent the weight, balance, texture, and feel of the trombone in your hand. Ever notice you have perfect pitch with your horn in your hand, or close to it? Brass players perfect pitch, you can hear a note while holding the horn, but not necessarily sing it if you're away from it.

That's probably partly why people play altos out of tune. They don't hear the note as cleanly. I've noticed if I'm playing a tune by ear on tenor I know what note I'm on, but on alto suddenly I'm not sure.
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hyperbolica
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Re: How would you interpret this?

Post by hyperbolica »

For intervals, your inner ear and muscle memory are huge. If you've been playing the K&H for a while, you're just attuned to that horn. You have to re-calibrate your inner ear for hearing the note before you play it to your chops which have to set to play the note.

I'd spend some time working through something like the Arbans interval studies on the 3b. You can just do scales at intervals, or anything that makes predictable and repeated intervals. Practice it for speed so you have to be able to set for the new note quickly and accurately. You can rip (lip slur across multiple partials) up to the higher note at first, and then gradually move to just articulating the top note cleanly.
glenp
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Re: How would you interpret this?

Post by glenp »

timothy42b wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 9:49 am Part of hitting jumps accurately is hearing the note accurately in your mind.

Part of doing that is recalling the note in context - in the context of the total set of stimuli you applied during the thosands of times you've played that note.
hyperbolica wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 9:54 am For intervals, your inner ear and muscle memory are huge. If you've been playing the K&H for a while, you're just attuned to that horn. You have to re-calibrate your inner ear for hearing the note before you play it to your chops which have to set to play the note.
Thanks to both of you! Sounds like you're all saying that I shouldn't interpret this as an issue with the King - this is probably all me being accustomed to the K&H, and that with enough time on the King practicing intervals, it should clear up nicely. That is what I was thinking since I could easily play the interval a second time after missing it. But I wanted to get confirmation on that before I committed to keeping the King.
glenp
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Re: How would you interpret this?

Post by glenp »

glenp wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 9:44 am
BGuttman wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 9:26 am The King probably has less of a "slot" than the K&H. This can be a blessing or a curse, depending on what you are trying to do. A strong slot means you can't "fudge" a tone as easily, but makes lip trills easier.
You might be right about that. But it feels like the king has more defined slots than the K&H. When trilling, the King feels like it's popping or bouncing a bit more between the two partials. I should have mentioned that in my first post.
After playing again just now, I noticed that the slots are pretty wide. I can lip the upper pitches more on the King than on the K&H. Not sure how to reconcile that with my other perception of how it pops between the partials more than the K&H - maybe I'm conflating concepts here.

So, Bruce you're probably right. And I think with practice it'll be just fine.
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Mv2541
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Re: How would you interpret this?

Post by Mv2541 »

FWIW the I also feel whatever thing you described in the original post. For some reason I tend to over or undershoot partials on Kings. It’s a shame bc I really like the way a 3BSS sounds in some contexts.
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harrisonreed
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Re: How would you interpret this?

Post by harrisonreed »

I don't have this issue on my 3B. Maybe you need to use the back of your tongue more to "set" the partial you want.
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Doug Elliott
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Re: How would you interpret this?

Post by Doug Elliott »

I think it's more a matter of the mouthpiece being a good match for the horn or not. There's a considerable difference in throat and backbore.

You're used to the 7C/K&H, and it's an OK match, so it works.
The K3B needs a more open setup, so the 6-1/2 automatically works better. The 7C makes it harder to find intervals because it's not a good match to the K3B.
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glenp
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Re: How would you interpret this?

Post by glenp »

Doug Elliott wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 9:59 pm I think it's more a matter of the mouthpiece being a good match for the horn or not. There's a considerable difference in throat and backbore.

You're used to the 7C/K&H, and it's an OK match, so it works.
The K3B needs a more open setup, so the 6-1/2 automatically works better. The 7C makes it harder to find intervals because it's not a good match to the K3B.
Thanks Doug. That’s an interesting observation. And that’s why I included the bit about the mouthpiece; thought it might be relevant.

I’ve also been playing it with a MT 101 + C cup. That seems to make the intervals a little easier as well. Might want to go to a larger cup though; the C cup sounds totally different on the 3B than it does on the K&H.

So with everything said, I’m going to conclude that it’s a combination of all the aforementioned causes, none of which are a problem with the horn. I need to be patient and keep practicing the intervals; hear the notes before playing them; and try the larger mouthpiece for a while.

Thanks all for the input! Including those I didn’t respond to directly, like harrisonreed and mv2541.
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harrisonreed
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Re: How would you interpret this?

Post by harrisonreed »

Is your DE the C3 shank?

The .508 specific shank really makes a huge difference
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Doug Elliott
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Re: How would you interpret this?

Post by Doug Elliott »

Yes, the .500 bore K&H would play better with a C2 and the K3B would definitely need a C3.
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Pre59
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Re: How would you interpret this?

Post by Pre59 »

glenp wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 9:19 am

I'm wondering how you all would interpret this? Would it influence your decision to keep the King?

Thanks for any thoughts you share!
It sounds like the King was an impulse buy? Who can blame you though, because they are a beautiful looking instrument especially with the re-instated small weight.
What to you hope to get from it that's different from the K+H?

Have you checked this topic? https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php? ... 31#p164131
glenp
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Re: How would you interpret this?

Post by glenp »

harrisonreed wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 11:25 pm Is your DE the C3 shank?
Doug Elliott wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 1:40 am Yes, the .500 bore K&H would play better with a C2 and the K3B would definitely need a C3.
It's the C2 shank. Seems like I should see about getting the 3 shank, maybe with a C+ or D cup.

Interestingly, even though I liked that mouthpiece, it didn't seem to have the "it" factor on the K&H. Something always felt off - so I ended up using the 7c most of the time. But on the King the DE piece seems to click better - even with the C2 shank.
Last edited by glenp on Tue Nov 30, 2021 11:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Doug Elliott
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Re: How would you interpret this?

Post by Doug Elliott »

It's been a while but I tried the K&H and couldn't really get it to click either.
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glenp
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Re: How would you interpret this?

Post by glenp »

Pre59 wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 2:29 am It sounds like the King was an impulse buy? Who can blame you though, because they are a beautiful looking instrument especially with the re-instated small weight.
What to you hope to get from it that's different from the K+H?

Have you checked this topic? https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php? ... 31#p164131
Oh, it was absolutely an impulse buy! I had taken my daughter to buy her first upgraded horn and was having her try out a bunch of options. She ended up going a different direction, but when I played this 3B it just sort of clicked. There was extra vibrancy in the tone and more clarity in the articulations, with greater ability to make it sizzle and pop if I wanted. It was an experience that I really enjoyed, and I really really wanted it. And it was $500 lower than market price, so it was a great deal and I couldn't pass it up. :D I figured the worst case if I ended up not wanting to keep it, is that I could turn around and sell it at the same price since it was discounted pretty heavily.
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Re: How would you interpret this?

Post by Pre59 »

I understand the impulse buying thing, came out of the store with a Rath R10..

The 3B is a very different horn to the K&H, that's for sure, I have one that's been unused since I got my 2 BvL 480/88"s. One "Standard" with two lead pipes, and the "Personal" with the larger bell and bronze slide.
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Re: How would you interpret this?

Post by OneTon »

Pre59 wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 1:36 pm I understand the impulse buying thing, came out of the store with a Rath R10..

The 3B is a very different horn to the K&H, that's for sure, I have one that's been unused since I got my 2 BvL 480/88"s. One "Standard" with two lead pipes, and the "Personal" with the larger bell and bronze slide.
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