Vintage trombone for elementary student?

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paul
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Vintage trombone for elementary student?

Post by paul »

My 10 year old son want to play trombone in the school band. I'm considering getting him a vintage horn for about $100, a 1920's era Holton. I love old horns, not only for the style and sound, but also for the build quality. (caveat: I'm not really a musician, but can make something approaching musical notes on a 1923 trumpet)

Do you experts think this is a crazy idea or a maybe crazy good idea?

thanks!
paul
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Re: Vintage trombone for elementary student?

Post by BGuttman »

Some vintage horns can be in really bad shape and may be very hard to fix.

Also note that tuning standards were a little different 100 years ago. There were two standards: High Pitch and Low Pitch. High pitch means the instrument is almost in B rather than Bb and the tuning slide is WAY too short to compensate. Low Pitch was at A=435 and even with the uning slide all the way in it's a little low. This can be fixed, but it's another expense.

Those two caveats aside, older instruments can be very good starters. Especially ones from the 1930s and 1940s. There are a lot of really good instruments to look for. Some were intended to be used by beginners: Holton Collegiate, Pan American (Conn student model), Gladiator (King student model). There are some Getzen instruments (Super Deluxe in particular) that were used as starter horns (I used one in elementary school in the 1950s)

Olds instruments were extremely well made and any model would be a good purchase. My first horn with an F-attachment was an Olds Ambassador. The professional instruments are good, but use a special inner slide with faces rather than being round and repairs may be difficult.

I don't know how good the Holton you are looking at is; some would be excellent and some not. Maybe you can give some more information.
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Re: Vintage trombone for elementary student?

Post by elmsandr »

This is a bit crazy. If you have a vintage build Student horn, fine. Some old Conns, a Bach Mercury, Olds Ambassadors, Holton Collegiates, Yamaha 354s... Those would work OK. I wouldn't toss a 1920's 'pro' horn into that mix. They just aren't as easy to play, especially for beginners. You can often find these other horns for that same price point if you are patient and look around.

Also, talk to your kid... does he want to be the kid with a 'different' horn? Not that he gets the final say, but do you want the fact that he feels bad about having a horn that looks different as a reason why he does not get interested in playing music for a lifetime? Chances are he'll give it up eventually, but I'd just prefer it was for a better reason.

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Re: Vintage trombone for elementary student?

Post by bubbachet »

elmsandr wrote: Tue Apr 24, 2018 7:32 am
Also, talk to your kid... does he want to be the kid with a 'different' horn? Not that he gets the final say, but do you want the fact that he feels bad about having a horn that looks different as a reason why he does not get interested in playing music for a lifetime? Chances are he'll give it up eventually, but I'd just prefer it was for a better reason.
I'm in 100% agreement with this sentiment, in addition to everything Bruce mentioned. The vintage horn idea isn't a very good one, I'm afraid.
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Re: Vintage trombone for elementary student?

Post by Kingfan »

Regarding older horns vs. new, I see some kids and/or parents on a budget insist on a new cheap overseas import because it is nice and new and shiny. Buying a brand new horn for $107 including shipping off eBay to them looks like a great move. I tell them if on a budget get a good used student horn instead - King, Yamaha, Olds, Conn, Holton, etc. - it may not be pretty but it will play much better and last a whole lot longer. They also hold their value vs. a new TSO (Trombone Shaped Object). Does the Holton have a threaded ring holding the slide to the bell? I tried to march with an old horn that used a thumb screw and it didn't stay in place. I have also picked up two King 2Bs that were used by beginners and relegated to the closet by jr. high, so newbie parents can go too far the other direction too.
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Re: Vintage trombone for elementary student?

Post by JohnL »

I remember when I replaced my Bundy with a Conn 4H back in junior high, I though it was the coolest thing in the world. The Conn had been well cared for, so It still looked pretty nice, and it was a serious upgrade from the Bundy in playability. I was the envy of the section for a little while.
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Re: Vintage trombone for elementary student?

Post by paul »

Wow, thanks for all the thoughtful comments!

The horn is a reasonably well maintained (few small dings in bell) Holton Revelation sn#79,xxx. So it appears to be a 1923, possibly up to 1930 based on my research.

My son loves the look and style of the horn and isn't worried about being different. Incidentally we looked at the pbone too, just for comparison, and he said "absolutely no way" (I thought the "toughness" might be a benefit, but I read that they may be fine for experienced players in some scenarios, but difficult to play for beginners).

As I mentioned I have a 1920's Pan American "Frat" trumpet, which my other two sons play, though in band they use an old TSO bought from a former student. Incidentally, it was suggested to me that their band director wouldn't let them play with the vintage trumpet because of silver plate and design. the peashooter just looks too "different" but I haven't confirmed this comment with the Director. ;)

The tuning issue does seem a concern, and I'm not sure my trumpet playing kids would be able to tell me. I suppose I could use an app on my mobile to tell if it's tuned differently than Bb? As I said, it's a mid 20's-30 Holton Revelation, if that helps any?

I have seen other Olds Ambassadors for just slightly more, and those seem like great horns too. I loved learning that Olds was "a one tolerance shop," and this build quality is one of the reasons I like vintage American horns. I'm guessing anything from the 30's up to the 60's from those shops mentioned would be a solid option?

I do have a bit of concern with the mouthpiece that comes with this Holton (or potentially any vintage horn). The one that comes with the Holton looks very much like a late 19th century mp, with an apparently flat rim and deep cup. Again, I only know anything about this from research and what little experience I have on the Pan American trumpet. Would this be a challenging mp for a beginner? And if so, what would be a recommended replacement? I've also read that it's not really so much the mp as the player and their practice with the mp to make the music!

Thanks so much for the helpful comments, keep em coming!
Paul

images for reference:
holton revelation 1.jpg
holton 2.jpg
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Re: Vintage trombone for elementary student?

Post by paul »

two more images (if i can get it to work!)
holton revelation 1.jpg
holton 2.jpg
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Re: Vintage trombone for elementary student?

Post by elmsandr »

With no bell lock nut and no cork barrels, this is not a modern instrument at all... I'd say it is just a few years too old to be really playable for a student.

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Re: Vintage trombone for elementary student?

Post by BGuttman »

I'd also like to mention that the shanks on those very small mouthpieces are smaller than modern "small shank" mouthpieces. You can find alternates, but they may be kind of rare. Also, most of those small mouthpieces are generally like a Bach 12C or smaller. Modern BD's like Bach 6.5 AL sized mouthpieces. Although for a 10 year old the small mouthpiece can be an advantage.

I second what Andy sayx about the bell-slide nut. Especially if you are going to do a lot of marching or mute insertions. They tend to separate at the worst possible times. This isn't a problem on trumpets; they come with only one main part.

I'd strongly recommend looking for a newer (1940s or 1950s) Olds Ambassador or Holton Collegiate. These are nice "gutsy" horns and tend to hold up well for beginners. Plus, they are built to more modern specs (mouthpiece shank, tuning).

If you are absolutely sold on the Revelation, check to see if it's High Pitch (will have a marking HP somewhere on it; and that doesn't mean Hewlett-Packard :wink: ) When I was a kid I had a 1925 Olds (I still have it) that I didn't use for band, but played at home. So the Revelation may find a use, even if not as his main instrument.
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Re: Vintage trombone for elementary student?

Post by paul »

AH! in fact it is marked "LP" and I forgot to mention that. So is LP or HP better in this situation?

I do take all your comments to heart, and will look for an Olds Ambassador or Holton Collegiate from a bit later era. I have seen some of those around in all my browsing.

I am very confident they don't do any marching all the way through middle school, so he's got another 5 years. Other than marching is the locking nut a significant problem?

And, as you say, for $80-100 it might be fun to have the Revelation around as a backup/different type of horn..:)

Thanks!
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Re: Vintage trombone for elementary student?

Post by Kingfan »

Paul, I have an Olds Ambassador SN 265xxx, late 1958 to early 1959. It isn't pretty and is in a mismatched case of another brand, but I had a slide tech work on it when I got it and it plays well. I have five other trombones I play and the Olds isn't doing anybody any good sitting in my basement. Where are you located?
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Re: Vintage trombone for elementary student?

Post by paul »

I'm in VA, Shenandoah Valley. Very interesting, would love for you to PM me or email me to discuss, whichever is appropriate?

Thanks!
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Re: Vintage trombone for elementary student?

Post by Kingfan »

PM sent - can't find an e-mail on your profile. Sorry!
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Re: Vintage trombone for elementary student?

Post by paul »

Hi Kingfan,
I sent you a PM as well, but didn't receive one yet. Maybe PMs aren't fully operational? You can reach me directly at pkosmas (at) gmail (dot) com.

Thanks to everyone for all the excellent advice, you trombonists are amazing!
Paul
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Re: Vintage trombone for elementary student?

Post by djkennedy »

i got a really cool besson prototype and york pro from around 1912 -you would really like these --and harry peddlar wow h&a selmer beautiful --
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Re: Vintage trombone for elementary student?

Post by Kingfan »

paul wrote: Tue Apr 24, 2018 7:20 pm Hi Kingfan,
I sent you a PM as well, but didn't receive one yet. Maybe PMs aren't fully operational? You can reach me directly at pkosmas (at) gmail (dot) com.

Thanks to everyone for all the excellent advice, you trombonists are amazing!
Paul
PM sent, EM sent with pics.
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Re: Vintage trombone for elementary student?

Post by paul »

Hey thanks to all of you for the input, you guys are great!

Bruce, I found a Getzen Super Deluxe Tone Balance that looks to be in good condition, and those seem very sturdy. Thoughts on that? Has some interesting wrapping on the braces and bell taper :)

Would that be a good horn for him? Sure is a nice looking horn!
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Re: Vintage trombone for elementary student?

Post by doctortrombone »

Ruh roh!!! I expect that old Three Stooges routine from Brue:

"Getzen Deluxe!! Slowly I turned, inch by inch, step by step...."

Bruce was psychologically abused by a Getzen when he was in grade school. :twisted:

The Super Deluxe is a fine-playing horn, but a bit fragile. The bell brass is paper thin, and the "C" shaped braces (I assume that's what you're talking about) are not particularly rigid. I've always thought that this was what made them play so well. They vibrate freely and give good feedback.

Check out which slide lock it has. Some had a thumb-screw on the upper cork barrel. Very "Home Depot" looking.

Also, make sure the lower cork barrel has the "J" shaped guard at the open end. Getzen outer slides have no ferrule on the open end, and they tend to treat your finger like a Mandolin slicer treats a potato.
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Re: Vintage trombone for elementary student?

Post by Neo Bri »

Why not just get a Yamaha 354 on eBay or locally? Probably can do for under $100, and they're probably the best student horns out there.
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Re: Vintage trombone for elementary student?

Post by paul »

Ha! Ok, my reading from Bruce above was that he thought that was a good student horn! Good to know he thought it was torture (but maybe that's what made him such a good player?? ;) )

Here's a link to the listing: https://www.ebay.com/itm/GETZEN-SUPER-D ... OSwx6lahGC~

I'll look at the Yamaha 354, that wasn't a horn I was aware of, thanks for the suggestion!
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Re: Vintage trombone for elementary student?

Post by BGuttman »

There are a lot of old Getzens and I had a bottom of the line with the C braces that scarred me for life.

The school horn that I like was a Super Deluxe with straight braces that had ferrules that were hexagonal. I think that was the top of the line.

There was one called Dude that had some hex barstock bent to an interesting shape, especially for the bell brce. I am not a fan of hex barstock braces since if they need adjustment you are SOL. I've never played one of these so I can't really comment.
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Re: Vintage trombone for elementary student?

Post by paul »

this one looks like Super Deluxe with straight braces and hex/octagonal ferrules. Good buy for <$100?

Also see lots of Olds Ambassadors have sold on ebay for $40-90! Trying to find one from the 40s-50s
getzen super deluxe tone balanced.jpg
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Re: Vintage trombone for elementary student?

Post by BGuttman »

If the slide is in good shape, yes. That's like the one I played in school, not like the POS I owned.

I like the customization with the "gimp".
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Re: Vintage trombone for elementary student?

Post by leec12 »

paul wrote: Tue Apr 24, 2018 6:13 am My 10 year old son want to play trombone in the school band. I'm considering getting him a vintage horn for about $100, a 1920's era Holton. I love old horns, not only for the style and sound, but also for the build quality. (caveat: I'm not really a musician, but can make something approaching musical notes on a 1923 trumpet)

Do you experts think this is a crazy idea or a maybe crazy good idea?

thanks!
paul
I have a Holton special from that era and it is very light but also very thin (delicate). I dropped the outer slide across the open case and ended up paying over $100 to repair it. it's a fun horn but would not stand up for a student IMO. Get an Ambasador, same price rance much more sturdy.
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Re: Vintage trombone for elementary student?

Post by paul »

Still searching guys, and learning! Appreciate all the help, and will update you guys on what we end up with :)

Have added Yamaha 352 and 354 to the search parameters.

Still strongly drawn to the vintage horns though! Put a bid in on an HN White King (not for my son really, but because I liked it) on ebay for $10 but was promptly outbid ;)
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Re: Vintage trombone for elementary student?

Post by imsevimse »

I have a Holton from 1914. Good horn but takes a smaller shank mouthpiece than today's small shank pieces. $100 is very cheap for any horn that plays but if you want your kid not to have a hard time with the horn I think you need to pay a little more. Go for a Yamaha 354 or 356 (has the f-valve). Make sure the slide works and your kid has a great instrument. I know people have found them cheap but if both cheap and in better shape then I think you need at least $250-300.

/Tom
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Re: Vintage trombone for elementary student?

Post by paul »

I definitely don't want to make him hate it because the instrument is difficult to play. The Yamahas are on the search list now, but I'm still leaning towards an Olds Ambassador of the 50's because there are a lot of them and have gotten pretty solid recommendations here as a student horn.

the Yamaha 356 is a new one to me. I wonder if elementary kids will learn to use the f-valve or if that's too much gear (and weight) for them just starting out?
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Re: Vintage trombone for elementary student?

Post by BGuttman »

There is a controversy regarding the F-valve and students.

On one hand, they tend to be smaller and have a hard time reaching the outer positions (5, 6, 7). Heck, even adults have a hard time reaching 7. The F-valve puts 6 and 7 in a nice, reachable location.

On the other hand, it adds weight, most are difficult to hold, and you can develop an excessive reliance on the valve for all Cs, Bs, low Fs, and low Es (you need to be able to play a "straight" horn now and then).

An interesting compromise was the Yamaha 350, which had an "ascending" trigger. It was a C trombone with a trigger that would put it in Bb. The trigger was set to be "on" all the time and you would press it to turn "off". This puts 6 and 7 in a convenient place, but you learn skills that won't traslate to a "straight" or even F-attachment trombone. I think Matt K converted one to normally be in C and uses a Bb trigger (which he could probably extend to G). Interesting concept, but not for a beginner.
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Re: Vintage trombone for elementary student?

Post by paul »

I had no idea until I started reading this forum that you could "hotrod" a trombone, or that it was as common as it appears among you aficionados! Very interesting...so Bruce, your general opinion is that a straight horn "classical education" is probably a better route for a 10 yo?
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Re: Vintage trombone for elementary student?

Post by GeeSamYouWell »

I vote for the ambassador. Most of them are fantastic players, and cheaper than the yamahas.
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Re: Vintage trombone for elementary student?

Post by BGuttman »

paul wrote: Tue May 01, 2018 2:01 pm I had no idea until I started reading this forum that you could "hotrod" a trombone, or that it was as common as it appears among you aficionados! Very interesting...so Bruce, your general opinion is that a straight horn "classical education" is probably a better route for a 10 yo?


I'm a "learn to walk before you run" kind of guy. I think F-attachments are for people who can play straight norns and want the additional features. You can rig up an extension handle so a small person can reach the outer positions (DEG used to sell one).

There was an interesting movement in Scandinavia where the kids would start on alto trombones. An alto trombone slide is short enough that even a 10 year old can reach the 7th position. Problem is, how do you learn to read? Bass clef? Alto clef? What do you do for parts?
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Re: Vintage trombone for elementary student?

Post by Doug Elliott »

I was 8 when I started and could almost reach 6th. I started on an Olds Recording, which was actually a pro level horn and probably helped me to have early success in playing... in addition to good advice from private lessons right from the beginning.

Get whatever you can find and afford, in a good quality horn. If the kid is interested it's not going to make any real difference which of those horns he starts on.
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Re: Vintage trombone for elementary student?

Post by paul »

You guys are awesome! After much gnashing of teeth and cramping of emboucher I followed the consensus of the group here and got an Olds Ambassador (LA)! I think it's a good solid horn :) Strangely enough, it doesn't appear to have any serial numbers, maybe it's an Ambassador prototype! ;) It does come with an Ambassador case and a Bach 6.5AL mouthpiece. Is that a reasonable mp for a beginner?

Next steps: cleaning and maintenance. Would love your advice on how to make sure this old baby is kept in good playing condition for another 60 or 70 years!

I was thinking of the Yamaha slide lubricant. The inside slide plating is good, though worn through on some places in the stockings. The outer slide does "fall" freely all the way if I rest it on a cushion and lift the bell.

Also thinking of giving it a good soak/bath in the tub with a small amount of Dawn dish soap. Then a thorough rinse and air dry. Don't have a snake yet. Any special tips here?

Anything else that you experts recommend? School's almost out for the summer, so he won't start playing until next year (5th grade). Would love to get him into some good habits prior to then, if there are good online resources?

Thanks again for everything guys, this has been and continues to be fun, with your help and guidance.

Link to pics attached for comments! I'm especially curious about the lack of sn#... any ideas?

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing
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Re: Vintage trombone for elementary student?

Post by Geordie »

Sounds a good approach. Check YouTube for demos of trombone cleaning. Yamaha lube is a good start.
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Re: Vintage trombone for elementary student?

Post by BGuttman »

Nice pick. A lot of us started on Olds Ambassadors

A 6.5 AL is good for a High Schooler but may be a tad big for a 5th Grader. You might consider a 12C at this stage.

If the slide has a little corrosion on the stockings, you need to remove it using something like Nevr-Dull (sold in auto parts stores to clean chrome). After you remove the corrosion (bright brass left behind) clean off the residue of the Nevr-Dull with alcohol and apply a dab of Trombotine (or any other good slide cream: Superslick, Conn Formula 3, or even Pond's cold Cream). Wipe off excess and then consider using the cream as the slide lube.

One issue with kids is they seem to use too much slide lube and the result is a gummy slide. This goes for the creams and for the liquids. One slide lube that appears to be immune to the "too much is gummy" is good old-fashioned slide oil (or even Al Cass oil). Once you can convince your son that less is more with the slide lube, the Yamaha stuff might be very good. Or a cream. Some slides like creams, others like the silicones.

You asked about a snake. I prefer the ones that have a vinyl coating on the shaft. They usually cost a couple of dollars more, but the shaft won't damage the metal. You should also have a cleaning rod and some cheesecloth. There is a nice video on the Edwards Instrument site with Christan Griego (president of Edwards) showing you how to do a full slide cleanout. I used to have it "stickied" to the Maintenance section of Trombone Forum, but that's gone.

If you decide to give the horn a bath, don't use hot water. If you wouldn't mind bathing in it yourself it's the right temperature.

Good luck with your purchase and I hope your son finds it fun.
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Re: Vintage trombone for elementary student?

Post by Driswood »

Neo Bri wrote: Wed Apr 25, 2018 8:21 am Why not just get a Yamaha 354 on eBay or locally? Probably can do for under $100, and they're probably the best student horns out there.
Found one on Craigslist a few months ago. From the early 90's, two small dents, lacquer is 95%. Paid $80 for it.

Spent $40 for a slide alignment, dent work, corks, etc.

Have $120 invested, and I have a 354 that looks and plays like a new horn. Great for a backup!

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Re: Vintage trombone for elementary student?

Post by Posaunus »

paul wrote: Tue May 08, 2018 11:41 am
Cleaning and maintenance. Would love your advice on how to make sure this old baby is kept in good playing condition for another 60 or 70 years!

I was thinking of the Yamaha slide lubricant. The inside slide plating is good, though worn through on some places in the stockings. The outer slide does "fall" freely all the way if I rest it on a cushion and lift the bell.

Also thinking of giving it a good soak/bath in the tub with a small amount of Dawn dish soap. Then a thorough rinse and air dry. Don't have a snake yet. Any special tips here?

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing
Slide lubricant:
A topic of endless discussion and mild dispute on The Trombone Forum (TromboneChat's "predecessor").
Lots of useful suggestions from Bruce Guttman - but I'm not sure that I agree with his approach on slide cream (most of us left these behind years ago, as I did). My lubrication recommendations for your youngster and his Olds Ambassador (a fine, robust trombone if in decent condition) that he could readily manage:
• Slide-O-Mix Rapid Comfort
• Yamaha Slide Lubricant
• Ultra-Pure Slide Lubricant
All are single component synthetic oils, easily applied - but as Bruce said, don't use too much:
• A drop or two on each stocking, a few more drops on the upper portions of each slide,
worked in to spread the lubricant over the inner slide surface.
• Add a light spritz of purified / distilled water with a spray bottle, and you're good to go.
(Don't use tap water - often leaves mineral deposits on the slide surfaces).
• Repeat spritz as necessary (perhaps every 30 minutes with an Olds slide).
• Wipe inner and outer slides clean ~weekly, and repeat lube procedure.

Bath:
Good idea. Use lukewarm water and a little Dawn soap.

Snake:
I strongly recommend, instead of a vinyl-coated wire snake with a bottle brush tip, using an HWP Brass-Saver (soft pull-through brush with a long plastic lead ribbon), which can be fed through the entire outer slide as well as the inner slides and the bell section! I follow the Brass-Saver with a long strip (about 3"x36") of cotton bedsheet wrapped around a trombone cleaning rod to dry and polish the slide interior.

Mouthpiece:
I agree with Bruce - the ever-popular 6½AL may be a bit too big for your son and this trombone. The original mouthpiece was an Olds 3 - about the size of a 12C, but fits the Olds mouthpiece receiver better. Perfectly good used mouthpieces are often available from TromboneChat members or on eBay at reasonable prices.

Encourage your son to practice regularly - and to enjoy making music!
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paul
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Re: Vintage trombone for elementary student?

Post by paul »

Thanks for all the excellent advice Bruce and Posaunus!

I have already ordered Trombotine, a Yamaha rod, and a Giardinelli Trombone Bore Cleaner from Musician's Friend. But these items are pretty inexpensive so I'll go ahead and follow your recommendations too on the HW Brass Saver brush and Yamaha Slide Lubricant. No harm in having both options to see which works best for us!

I did read a review on the HW Brass Saver that the plastic ribbon was prone to failure, but now I believe it was because the user was pushing it through rather than pulling. Is proper technique to feed the plastic ball through and then pull the brush?

I'm on the hunt for a 12C or Olds 3 mouthpiece now to round out our kit! Perhaps I'll learn on the 6.5AL ;) Are all makes of 12C's (Bach, Conn, etc) close enough to the same that I don't need to be concerned with which one I end up with?
Paul

avid parent, musical neophyte
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ghmerrill
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Re: Vintage trombone for elementary student?

Post by ghmerrill »

I have experimented quite a bit with mouthpieces for my '47 Olds standard. Something like the 6.5AL gives it a bit more of a "modern sound". But in the end it seems a bit "too big". I've tried a couple of the smaller Bachs as well. But he horn wants the Olds #3. It really does. In addition, the Olds mouthpiece shanks actually fit the receiver. You can usually find an Olds #3 in good condition on Ebay or one of the trombone lists for < $50. Otherwise, consider buying a junk Ambassador online just in order to get the mouthpiece with it. Often you can get these for the same price as for the mouthpiece alone. Look at shopgoodwill.com. Ambassadors show up there with alarming frequency.
Gary Merrill
Wessex EEb tuba
Mack Brass Compensating Euph
Amati Oval Euph
1924 Buescher 3-valve Eb tuba
Schiller American Heritage 7B clone bass trombone
DE LB K/K10/112 Lexan, M&K GR Nickel leadpipe
1947 Olds "Standard" trombone (Bach 12c)
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paul
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Re: Vintage trombone for elementary student?

Post by paul »

Yep, already on the hunt! There's an Ambassador for sale with a Connstellation 5BN mp, but that doesn't seem like the right choice for a beginner?

Olds #3 will be my first choice, if I can find one. I've got all summer I guess, though I'd rather get him started sooner than later on the right mp, rather than struggling with the 6.5 AL this summer. What qualifies it as "in good condition"? Anything about the condition of the mp in particular I should avoid? Thanks!
Paul

avid parent, musical neophyte
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Kingfan
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Re: Vintage trombone for elementary student?

Post by Kingfan »

ImageThe most important things to look at on a used mouthpiece is scratches on the rim where the lips touch (all old mouthpieces will have visible fine scratches and nicks, but my rule of thumb is if I can't feel it with my lips or fingertips it is not a concern), plating worn down to the brass in the cup or rim, and a dented/cracked/out of round shank end.

Paul, I still have that 50s era Olds Ambassador I sent you the video of. I lubed the slide some more and it improved, but still is not great. The mouthpiece is very playable. If you don't find a mouthpiece by the fall, if I still have the horn I might be willing to separate, or make you a deal right now on the entire package so you have a spare trombone for parts along with the correct mouthpiece. Let me know.
I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are still missing! :D
Greg Songer
King 606, King 3B-F: DE LT101/LTD/D3
King 4B-F: Bach 5G Megatone gold plated
King 2107 bass: DE MB109/MB J/J8 King
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